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Photogravure Plates, Resists Question

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mkochsch

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I'm mid-way through my first intaglio printing class. Mostly it has focussed on etching, burnishing, scratching et al. Me being me, I want to start printing photos at this point. Can someone summarize the pros/cons involved in using different plates and their methods (copper, polymer etc.) i.e. is one type of plate more durable than another. Also the pros and cons of different resist methods. Costs? Screening methods (i.e. aquatinting) Negative density ranges? Thx.

~m
 

freedda

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Wow, what a question. I took a class with Keith Howard last summer in photo-polymer etching, using ImagOn film. I make my plates by adhering the film onto plastic plates, and expose them in a UV unit with a digital transparency "positive" on top to create the image.

I like this process, but I've had to work at it for over nine months to get to where I'm just now creating the images I like. The film and materials are not that expensive (about $21 US for 10 ft x 12 inch roll of ImagOn), and the plates can be reused.

I'm no expert, but I understand that the photogravure process is a bit more involved and exacting. I think you also have to use copper or zinc plates. Keith Howard might disagree, but I think you can get a range of tone and subtlety not really possible with more modern techniques (think of the work of of Edward Curtis and Alfred Stieglitz).

There are only a handful of people who do photogravure, and it might be a dying art. If your interested in this, check out the work of Jon Goodman http://www.jgoodgravure.com/; he also teaches photogravure workshops in Florence, Mass. (USA).

One of the claims made about the photo-polymer process is that it is non-toxic or much less so than photogravure. Jon Goodman would argue that this is not entirely true and that photogravure can be done in a safe and non-toxic manner.

Regards, David.
 
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mkochsch

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Thank you the Jon Goodman site is fantastic. I'm going to try to use the RNP digital negative/positive method this week to create positives exactly as you've been doing. I also found an interesting book called "Copper Plate Photogravure: Demystifying The Process" at Amazon which has a great intro available online -- which I'll probably end up buying. I did not know that Photogravure was one of the first "archival" methods available for photographs when the world was still using salt and albumen. Also the methods of A La Poupe and Chine Coll open up a whole new range of possibilities for expression in the medium.
One of the things that I've really been wondering about this the whole "graining" process involved in creating the tone palette. Aquatinting with dust or sprays as opposed to using a screen. Then I've read a little bit about Stochastic dithering the image on the computer (essentially converting it to black and white PMT) and outputting that to film. Can reasonable results be achieved with this method using a digital inkjet positive?
~m
 

donbga

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Thank you the Jon Goodman site is fantastic. I'm going to try to use the RNP digital negative/positive method this week to create positives exactly as you've been doing. I also found an interesting book called "Copper Plate Photogravure: Demystifying The Process" at Amazon which has a great intro available online -- which I'll probably end up buying. I did not know that Photogravure was one of the first "archival" methods available for photographs when the world was still using salt and albumen. Also the methods of A La Poupe and Chine Coll open up a whole new range of possibilities for expression in the medium.
One of the things that I've really been wondering about this the whole "graining" process involved in creating the tone palette. Aquatinting with dust or sprays as opposed to using a screen. Then I've read a little bit about Stochastic dithering the image on the computer (essentially converting it to black and white PMT) and outputting that to film. Can reasonable results be achieved with this method using a digital inkjet positive?
~m
Susan Voss who sometimes posts here uses PDN to make positive transparencies for polymer photogravure printing and has a blog at:

http://www.susanvossgravures.blogspot.com/

You may wish to contact her about her methods.

Also you may recall that there was quite a bit of discussion on the Alt Process mail list about a year ago so you may wish to visit those archives since there was a lot of discussion about using screens.

Finally Keith Taylor who sometimes posts here has been doing polymer gravure with digitally generated positives.

Don Bryant
 
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mkochsch

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Carbogel carbon-q

Susan if you're out there I like your site too (if fact I'm waiting for your next blog entry ;^)). I'm wondering where I can get the type of plates (Toyobo Printight) in Canada or equivalent materials.
Anyone know whatever happened to Peter A. Lehman's Carbogel and carbon-q methods? Did it move forward from it's early beginnings?
Another site I've found is Peter Miller's Kamprint.com which has a good howto on the traditional gravure subject. I'll have to visit "the list" archives. I've been "off" list for a few months while maybe it's time to go to the well again.

~m
 

rogein

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One of the claims made about the photo-polymer process is that it is non-toxic or much less so than photogravure. Jon Goodman would argue that this is not entirely true and that photogravure can be done in a safe and non-toxic manner.

Regards, David.

I'd like to hear from others on this point. Can it be done 'safely' in the home environment? I've always wanted to learn the process but don't have a separate studio/building I can work in so toxicity/fumes is a big concern.

Roger...
 

LaurenceO

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Hello there, just joined, first post and all that. I do a reasonable amount of classic etching, recently have been experimenting with Hydro-coat from Revere Graphics. The particular product I'm using is a zinc plate with a light-sensitive coating already in place. So workflow is - create positive, expose, develop, wash out, bite, print.

I've been working with this stuff for around three months off and on, trying to get an approximation of the delicate detail of photogravures. Not there yet, but I'm remaining positive. Particularly critical is positive creation as you have to provide detail (halftone, bitmap) in the shadows so as not to get 'open bite'.

Good/bad points? It's a ready made product which comes with a plastic backing to the plate and the coating in place; good quality piece of aluminium (at least mine is); no fumes etc until you get to the acid part. On the bad side, it's very expensive, and yes it needs to be bitten unlike the photo-polymers (as fas as I understand it).

I'm in the UK so info on suppliers isn't much use to you, but this is the site for Revere, and Google hydro-coat too

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If you want more detail, happy to oblige.
 

Keith Taylor

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Anyone have a source for Toyobo Printight KM Plates? Currently I'm working with Riston (or a variant) but the KM plates looks like they work as good or better.

I order mine from Boxcar Press and use them in conjunction with a stochastic screen from Dan Welden (Solarplate). The film postives I'm printing on either an Epson 4000 or 2400.

I've been working with these plates for around 8 years now and been really pleased with them. Jon Goodman visited the studio last year and we compared the two processes and although there is a difference between polymer and copperplate, if done correctly the difference is minor. The main factor for me using these plates is that it suits my style of photography and printing, and doesn't require the need for large spaces dedicated to plate making alone.

I also know that both Jon and Lothar Osterberg have been working with digital film positives and Lothar with the polymer plates also.
 

jd callow

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Hello there, just joined, first post and all that. I do a reasonable amount of classic etching, recently have been experimenting with Hydro-coat from Revere Graphics. The particular product I'm using is a zinc plate with a light-sensitive coating already in place. So workflow is - create positive, expose, develop, wash out, bite, print.

I've been working with this stuff for around three months off and on, trying to get an approximation of the delicate detail of photogravures. Not there yet, but I'm remaining positive. Particularly critical is positive creation as you have to provide detail (halftone, bitmap) in the shadows so as not to get 'open bite'.

Good/bad points? It's a ready made product which comes with a plastic backing to the plate and the coating in place; good quality piece of aluminium (at least mine is); no fumes etc until you get to the acid part. On the bad side, it's very expensive, and yes it needs to be bitten unlike the photo-polymers (as fas as I understand it).

I'm in the UK so info on suppliers isn't much use to you, but this is the site for Revere, and Google hydro-coat too

Dead Link Removed

If you want more detail, happy to oblige.

LaurenceO,
If you were to start a new thread it might get greater notice. And if nw one can help you here try apug.org.

Welcome to hybridphoto.
 

LaurenceO

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Thanks for looking out for me, but it's ok. OP wanted to know about materials and methods, I'm experimenting with zinc. Seems photo-polymer's the thing everyone wants to know about.
 
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mkochsch

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Laurence,
Are you making an aquatint "burn" to your plate? I think it's common to use an 85% black aquatint screen first. This would harden 15% "islands" in your plate's ocean of polymer leaving the other 85% to take the information from your contone image avoiding the open bite problem. Are you using an inkjet printer, lith or an imagesetter to make your positives? Can you high rez scan a sample out your results for comparison in grain.
~m
 

E Thomson

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I'm mid-way through my first intaglio printing class. Mostly it has focussed on etching, burnishing, scratching et al. Me being me, I want to start printing photos at this point. Can someone summarize the pros/cons involved in using different plates and their methods (copper, polymer etc.) i.e. is one type of plate more durable than another. Also the pros and cons of different resist methods. Costs? Screening methods (i.e. aquatinting) Negative density ranges? Thx.

~m

Photogravure goes back a long way and there have been many technical approaches. When it was a common commercial practice, there was a gelatin photogravure film available which one bought and used. It's no longer around. Making one's own film is largely antiquated by modern approaches (though I would love to see a period step-by-step description for making film). So when we talk about doing photogravure, we're usually talking about some modern version and approach.

I tend to think that any transference of a photographic image to a plate, then printed as an intaglio print with an etching press, is "photogravure". But some modern techniques have been named other things by their creators, notably Keith Howard's "intaglio-type". Howard came across a Dupont film that was made for etching circuit-boards (not micro-chips but larger-scale boards). It hardens when exposed to UV (usually through an image-mask of course) and develops with mild caustic. It was called Riston. Howard developed a photogravure process around it, mounting the film on a plate and etching only the thickness of the film (not through to the copper substrate). The film is durable enough to pull an edition of up to 100 prints, which is certainly in the range of (non-steel-faced) copper and zinc. (By pulling an edition, I mean inking it with etching ink, wiping it, printing it on etching paper through a standard etching/intaglio press and getting 35-100 consistent images). Dupont repackaged it for this unexpected use under the name ImagOn. There is now an ImagOn II, with slight improvements. Howard took all this on the road and does a workshop circuit, emphasis on non-toxic intaglio methods and materials. Google him and order his book for plenty of advice.

The other dominant approach currently is Solar Plate. Sold at Graphic Chemical, Takach Press and many intaglio-supply sources, as is the ImagOn. It is a plate ready-prepared with the industrial alternative to masking film; a liquid resist solution with the same UV/developing characteristics, floated onto the plate and dried. In this case, the approach is to develop through to the copper, then etch that in a mordant and get your image really into the metal. The mask is then washed off and you have a traditional copper photogravure plate. Here's a fascinating pdf on the industrial product/process:

http://www.htp.ch/pcm.asp

Go to the home page and open "Liquid Resists..."

With this second approach, you wind up in the same place; your image is etched into an inkable surface and will produce an intaglio print in the usual manner. The Solar Plate, being copper all through, if steel-faced, would be far more durable; otherwise not a big practical difference in durability. The ImagOn gets you away from acids, but if you etch copper with ferric chloride you're not dealing with classic acids anyway. With ImagOn, you're putting the labor in so the cost per plate is less. And if the plate fails, wash it off and do it again. Once you've etched the copper of a Solar Plate, it better be good. I've not seen convincing evidence of better image quality with Solar Plate, but that argument is out there.

With both approaches, you have to calibrate your inter-positive density to the exposure source, as well as the nature of the inks/paper/wiping technique. In other words, you develop step-tablets and contrast curves like everyone else here. A gross generalization is your negative will look like it will produce very low contrast prints. But you have to start with your exposure source and go from there. Both ImageOn and Solar Plate are intended for near-ish UV so strong sunlight is good and plate-burners are great. Black lights don't work.

Screening. The process is intaglio, so you need a 'screen' pattern of some sort embedded in the image. Otherwise if you expose through a true continuous-tone inter-positive, it's all just open-bite. Not many do true aquatint anymore (well, artist-etchers do of course, but not many photogravurists), but there's no reason why not. Likely it will produce a somewhat coarser texture than you have in mind, but not if you become an expert aquatinter. Most people buy a screen printed out on film and pre-expose the plate to register a grid or dots or stochastic pattern. But it is possible to embed a pattern into the image itself and print it out on an inkjet these days. Here you find all sorts of advice and there are various ways to skin the cat. Printing red-orange as a chromatic filter. Using pigment blacks for good blockage. Clearly, this is an area that gets calibrated into your density/exposure. Dan Burkholder had a lot to say about this stuff (there's a website) but the furious pace of inkjet progress tended to obsolete concrete advice quickly.

Hope some of this helps. I'll be interested to see some more concrete advice discussed.
 
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mkochsch

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Thank you for that post Reck. One of the things I'm interested in is the 'etch-through-to-copper riston-based methods aka intaglio-type etch.
What I'm thinking of trying tonight is laminating the Riston (Imagon) to the copper plate by first removing the bottom layer of cellophane. Then spray painting the top mylar layer to achieve an aquatint layer. I'm thinking I need a fairly heavy coat of spray paint (50%? 75%? 90%? per cent I have no idea what coverage I need). Then once that dries I'm going to expose my aquatint layer in the NuArc UV unit to build islands or lands as they're called. Then I'm going to remove the top mylar layer from the Riston with the aquatint and lay a digital positive on top making a positive-riston-copper plate sandwich and then shoot this again with UV. Then wash out with a 1% sodium carbonate developer wash. My question is I've read some people "thin" the riston first. Is this necessary. My other question is does the ferric chloride go through the riston-imagon the same way it might through gelatin for give varying etch depths?
~m
 

E Thomson

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Thank you for that post Reck. One of the things I'm interested in is the 'etch-through-to-copper riston-based methods aka intaglio-type etch.
What I'm thinking of trying tonight is laminating the Riston (Imagon) to the copper plate by first removing the bottom layer of cellophane. Then spray painting the top mylar layer to achieve an aquatint layer. I'm thinking I need a fairly heavy coat of spray paint (50%? 75%? 90%? per cent I have no idea what coverage I need). Then once that dries I'm going to expose my aquatint layer in the NuArc UV unit to build islands or lands as they're called. Then I'm going to remove the top mylar layer from the Riston with the aquatint and lay a digital positive on top making a positive-riston-copper plate sandwich and then shoot this again with UV. Then wash out with a 1% sodium carbonate developer wash. My question is I've read some people "thin" the riston first. Is this necessary. My other question is does the ferric chloride go through the riston-imagon the same way it might through gelatin for give varying etch depths?
~m

Howard says a spray aquatint over ImagOn should be 60%. This accords with the traditional rosin-dust figure of 50%-plus-a-little. Howard is talking about an optimized black acrylic product put out by Badger Airbrush for the purpose. Your mileage may vary.

Plate burners are very effective on ImagOn. Your calibrations will depend on your developer and other factors but you might start your tests around 3 sec and go up to 20 sec., for starters.

ImagOn is a thick film. Liquid resists are thin films. Together they bracket the needs of the circuit-board and micro-machining industries. ImagOn is thick enough that we can embed an entire intaglio image into it without going to the copper. Liquid resists better allow us to etch the copper directly. Theoretically, a thick film will allow too much diffraction of the light before it reaches the copper, allowing the image to degrade (although I can't reconcile this with the industry uses, this is Howard's observation). So Howard elaborates a technique for reducing ImagOn to a thin film, like a liquid resist. He suggests an eight-minute thinning step in developer-strength solution for the highest resolution images (there will be almost no ImagOn left) and six or five minutes for other purposes. I've not tried this; he says it works. It seems workable but only with a firm handle on all your other variables, as it probably requires real finesse.

The ImagOn was developed for a purpose that had different priorities than ours. It's intended to produce clean edges and a binary effect: either it lets etching happen or it doesn't. And by the way it was formulated for ferric chloride and a copper substrate. So, no, it is a completely effective resist to ferric chloride and doesn't have a time variable like gelatin. That would be the Holy Grail, getting modern liquid resist to break down progressively during the etch, in a controllable way. I suppose one way would be to shuttle the plate between caustic and acid during the etch step, assuming the ImagOn was laid down so predictably that you could work right at the edge of breakdown.

I re-read some discussion of the progressive breakdown of traditional gelatin resists last night. Frankly, it strikes me as the reason classic photogravure is regarded as the all-time best image quality on the printed surface. It makes me want to make my own gelatin paper.

Howard uses 10 grams anhydrous sodium carbonate to 50 ml hot water, used at 65-70F.

You really should pick up Howard's "Contemporary Printmaker" book. He's not absolutely reliable or the greatest writer, but he's been down these roads and provides a fairly advanced stepping-off point. Good luck.
 

LaurenceO

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Laurence,
Are you making an aquatint "burn" to your plate? I think it's common to use an 85% black aquatint screen first. This would harden 15% "islands" in your plate's ocean of polymer leaving the other 85% to take the information from your contone image avoiding the open bite problem. Are you using an inkjet printer, lith or an imagesetter to make your positives? Can you high rez scan a sample out your results for comparison in grain.
~m

Hi again, interesting discussion for me this, I'm soaking up stuff as quickly as I can.

I'm not using an aquatint layer because, at this point in the proceedings, I'm using Photoshop to bitmap the image. ATM that's at 400dpi and then output onto Folex Laser Film. I was getting open bite for a while until I figured everything was too dark to pick up the bitmap on exposure. I'm now outputting at 50% opacity and that's solved, well at least with that particular film.

The result is fairly coarse. I'm sure that's for a variety of reasons - paper type, the bitmapping process, time in the acid. I do want to persevere though as I like the idea of working with the zinc plate beyond the photo-etch. Guess I'm torn between the photo-gravure ideals and the artist-etch thing. I wish I knew whether this particular product (hydrocoat zinc) has the ability to get that much detail, I'm quite new to this so relying on instinct a lot.

Suggestions from you are welcome. I suppose my contribution can only be that I'm following a slightly different path so you have something to compare against.
 
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mkochsch

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Reck, so with Riston type materials being "binary" does that mean that the aquatint provides the binary? If my aquatint is 50% that means I have 50% lands and 50% unexposed riston after the aquatint exposure. So when I use a positive transparent photo as art I can only manipulate the remaining 50% of the unexposed Riston, right? Can one use a contone positive with riston? Or should it be converted to line art (bitmap binary)? Thx

~m
 

E Thomson

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Reck, so with Riston type materials being "binary" does that mean that the aquatint provides the binary? If my aquatint is 50% that means I have 50% lands and 50% unexposed riston after the aquatint exposure. So when I use a positive transparent photo as art I can only manipulate the remaining 50% of the unexposed Riston, right? Can one use a contone positive with riston? Or should it be converted to line art (bitmap binary)? Thx

~m

Sorry, didn't mean to imply quite so much with the term "binary"; only that it was developed to be either "on" or "off", meaning that it washed off (developed) clean and easy wherever it was not UV exposed. This gave the original user base crisp edges and no unexpected grey areas (metaphorically speaking) in the technology.

Yes, the traditional goal in aquatinting is to shoot for a 50% coverage, meaning half the plate area is protected from biting. But there is latitude in the traditional method, by virtue of the considerable manipulation one does to the ink in the wiping. So if you have too much "land", that's okay (hence the "50%-and-then-some" ) because there is ink spread and wiping latitude.

With photogravure, the thing to always keep in mind is that the image is not continuous tone; intaglio has to have both surface and pits in any given area, otherwise it's open-bite and the ink will pull from the etch. The whole aquatint step is simply to provide a matrix of pits to any given contone exposure. And yes, it means the Riston available to carry an image, after aquatinting, is 50% (actually, Howard is specifying 60%, meaning he'd like a little extra Riston available).

The other approach, developed fairly recently as inkjets became more capable of all this, is to 'embed' the texture into the image in Photoshop and print an interpositive that already has the required matrix of pits. One way is to turn the image into a bitmap; I'm afraid I don't know what the advice is for resolution (simple enough to test for acceptable granularity at 300/600/1200 ppi). The other is to use the inherent grain of an inkjet itself. This has only become possible recently with pigment inkjets, where the ink is dense enough for each fleck to block UV. If you look at an interpositive on Pictorico film with a loupe, printed with an HP9180, it looks for all the world like photo grain somewhat enlarged...or aquatint. It's a stochastic pattern. I haven't gotten to try this yet but it looks like we've come full circle from when the inkjets were laying down something that behaved more like a cloud of transparent continuous-tone dye.

We seem to be at a place where the tools have matured for modern photogravure. I've been gathering my process together for a push later this year on the various methods. We are probably at a point where a fully mature process can be finally written up that rivals the old methods.
 

E Thomson

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Hi again, interesting discussion for me this, I'm soaking up stuff as quickly as I can.

I'm not using an aquatint layer because, at this point in the proceedings, I'm using Photoshop to bitmap the image. ATM that's at 400dpi and then output onto Folex Laser Film. I was getting open bite for a while until I figured everything was too dark to pick up the bitmap on exposure. I'm now outputting at 50% opacity and that's solved, well at least with that particular film.

The result is fairly coarse. I'm sure that's for a variety of reasons - paper type, the bitmapping process, time in the acid. I do want to persevere though as I like the idea of working with the zinc plate beyond the photo-etch. Guess I'm torn between the photo-gravure ideals and the artist-etch thing. I wish I knew whether this particular product (hydrocoat zinc) has the ability to get that much detail, I'm quite new to this so relying on instinct a lot.

Suggestions from you are welcome. I suppose my contribution can only be that I'm following a slightly different path so you have something to compare against.

I looked at online info on your prepared plates and they seem the real deal. Perhaps more purpose-built than US products. They should hold detail fine.

400ppi is, I think, too coarse for good detail on a bitmap. Someone who had done a lot of experimenting once told me what he was using and 1200 sticks in my mind, but I'm not sure. The texture should not be visible on the film without magnification, aside from a sense of granularity.

The inkjet you're using determines a lot. A pigment-ink machine, set to print on film (lower density of ink), should be giving us something close. The laser film you're using: does that mean you're printing with a laser? I think that right there might be too coarse (are lasers doing better than 300ppi?). But if you're using the laser film for inkjet and it's holding the ink, maybe you've got something that works. Here the OHP material called Pictorico gets used a lot. Bottom line, once you have sufficient granularity etched into the image to hold the ink, and you like the resolution, it's all in the tone curves.
 
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SusanV

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Susan if you're out there I like your site too (if fact
I'm waiting for your next blog entry ;^)). I'm wondering where I can get the
type of plates (Toyobo Printight) in Canada or equivalent materials.
Anyone know whatever happened to Peter A. Lehman's Carbogel and
carbon-q methods? Did it move forward from it's early beginnings?
Another site I've found is Peter Miller's Kamprint.com which has a good how
to on the traditional gravure subject. I'll have to visit "the list" archives. I've
been "off" list for a few months while maybe it's time to go to the well again.


~m

Yes, I'm here finally :surprised:)
Sorry I was missing but I've been painting and not printmaking the past few
months. Now I'm getting back to gravuring though... Keith answered your
question about KM73 plates... I also buy them from Boxcar. Nice people
they are.
I have done traditional etching on zinc and copper many years ago, applying
resin dust as an aquatint, etc... It's a long process to get to a finished
result. Acids, hot liquid asphaltum resists, etc.. If you love the process
itself, great. Since learning to use the photopolymer plates, I have no
interest in going back to the traditional methods of etching. I like using only
water to process, and UV light to expose. I do first make an exposure using
an 80% random dot screen, then expose with my inkjet-printed, PDN
processed positive image. I think this is all in my blog, though.

I'll be back around here now, so if you have any other questions I'll be happy
to help whenever I can. Nice to have another printmaker in-the-making around :smile:

Susan
 

SusanV

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How do you make the 80 per cent screen?
Inkjet or do you buy one?

I buy mine from Dan Weldon at www.solarplate.com . Works great.
He sells them in different sizes but they're all the same random dot pattern and
percentage.

In case you need a starting point... my 2 exposures of the screen and positive
are about equal with a NuArc UV unit. That should get you in the ball park
anyway.

Susan
 

Michael Slade

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Just got my plates from BoxcarPress. Susan's blog has done much to sway me toward the polymergravure, and I'm excited to get them going. A bunch of stuff has gotten out of the way, and now I have some time to mess around with the materials.

I too will be using Pictorico OHP and an Epson 4000 printer. I am undecided if I will try to embed the image with the dots, or if I will use a stochastic screen.

This thread is a good one. Two more links to add to my blog now. :smile:

Thanks guys.

EDIT: Does anyone have a digital stepwedge that they'd be willing to share? I have an official 'stouffer' one, but I need to generate one on the computer next.
 
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