Photography School Options - GASP! Stone might finally learn something!

StoneNYC · May 18, 2014

MartinCrabtree said:
The only thing I have to add here is this. If you must borrow to attend school-DON'T. A GSL is an albatross that will hang about your neck forever. It will interfere with life plans literally for decades after it's paid off. Avoid them at all costs.

Simply advice do with it what you please.

Don't laugh... What's a GSL and why would it hang over me after being paid off?

Prof_Pixel · May 18, 2014

GSL=guaranteed student loan

Ken Nadvornick · May 18, 2014

It's a Guaranteed Student Loan, since reamed a Federal Stafford Loan (additional info here, and here). It's the financial instrument you take out to pay for your undergraduate or graduate studies.

People will often point out the sometimes devastating effect these loans can have over the long run of having to repay them. But it's not really the loan instrument that's the problem. It's the skyrocketing costs of an education that require people to incur enormous amounts of debt to finance it. A GSL/FSL is just the mechanism of taking on that debt.

I personally know individuals who were in their late 40s and early 50s who were still trying to pay those suckers off. I could be wrong, but I seem to remember reading that not even a bankruptcy court can discharge a student loan. It's yours until you die.

Martin's warning is a good one, and worth keeping in mind if and when you reach the financing stage.

Ken

Wayne · May 18, 2014

I'm still paying GSLs that I took out in an all-fated return to school 12 years ago that lasted one semester. Fortunately I did finally pay off the ones I took out 30 years ago, after about 20 years. Definitely to be avoided (if possible) unless you are entering a high paying field or one with more certain job opportunities. But when you're looking at it from the other end of the tunnel, they seem like a good idea. Or even the only way to make it happen.

Wayne · May 18, 2014

Correct. You can't even kill off student loans in bankruptcy.

Truzi · May 18, 2014

Xmas said:
A CV is on one page single sided with font sized not to need reading glasses.

Your customer should not need to page through more than two or three of portfolio - but if Truzi thought they were suspect a % of your potential customers will close email and block your address.

Communication is about abstraction text as well as graphics.

If your model does drugs... you could be sharing a cell with Bob...

Sorry, I don't quite follow the reference to me.

StoneNYC · May 18, 2014

I still don't understand how that affects me once I've paid it off.

I also don't get why people are complaining about having to pay off their debt, isn't that the point of borrowing, to intend to pay it back? Lol

My ex owed $250,000 in student loans, and she had a lot of scholarships so it would have been more if not for those... So $25,000 is nothing.

Again if I do 4 years I will be more concerned about debt, 2 years, at Paier's price, is not a concern. Thanks.

Alan Klein · May 18, 2014

This Monster link shows various opportunities for jobs in photography. They are quite diverse. It may give you some ideas of where to apply for a job or how to structure your future. If you go back to school, I agree with other that business admin could open doors in photography and elsewhere. Good luck
http://jobs.monster.com/v-creative-design-q-photographer-jobs.aspx

removed account4 · May 18, 2014

Truzi said:
Sorry, I don't quite follow the reference to me.

i don't either because as a "photographer" your portfolio IS your resume,
unless you are doing academic and gallery work where you reference
your publication and exhibition history.

Alan Klein · May 18, 2014

One other thing. I wouldn't get scared away from jobs that say they require a degree. It often is put in the job ad as a "badge of requirements" because everyone else does it. Especially if you have other real-world qualifications. Once you've been out of college for awhile or have worked for awhile without a degree, businesses look for people with experience. So apply for jobs that you think you can do even if they ask for a degree. Also, I've found that many qualifications in an ad are often beyond what most people have at the time they apply for a job. You learn many of those things on the job. Often the ad asks for more than they will be able to find in applicants. So again, don't get discouraged. Apply for the job anyway.

Finally, an introduction is worth it's weight in gold. It puts you at the top of the pile. Knowing someone who can get you in the door is the best way to get an interview and subsequently the job. Think about the people you know who can help you and don't be afraid to ask for references and introductions.

Ken Nadvornick · May 18, 2014

StoneNYC said:
I still don't understand how that affects me once I've paid it off.

The problem is that student loans come with a risk. The expectation is that an individual will earn more after an education than before it. So the means to pay off the loan will be there.

But what happens if the loan is taken out, the education is completed, then the student cannot find a job that pays well enough to begin repaying (within six months after graduation) the loan payments?

This is what has happened to hundreds of thousands of students who graduated during and after the Great Recession. They too had every intention of being able to repay their loans with better paying jobs. But after graduating the only work they could find was waiting tables and washing dishes. Barely enough to feed and house themselves.

So they ended up back with their parents while using waitressing tips to keep the student loan collection wolves from the door. Or moving on to graduate degree studies, since that allows deferral (but not elimination) of the loan repayment requirements. And which usually also requires new additional student loans...

My suspicion is that a photography education would be an even greater job-finding challenge than that faced by Tiffany Brown. That's not saying to not go down the education road. It's just saying to do it with eyes wide open and fully understanding the potential financial risks.

Ken

Wayne · May 18, 2014

StoneNYC said:
I still don't understand how that affects me once I've paid it off.

I also don't get why people are complaining about having to pay off their debt, isn't that the point of borrowing, to intend to pay it back? Lol

My ex owed $250,000 in student loans, and she had a lot of scholarships so it would have been more if not for those... So $25,000 is nothing.

Again if I do 4 years I will be more concerned about debt, 2 years, at Paier's price, is not a concern. Thanks.

I'm sorry you found my comments to be "complaining". They were intended merely as a constructive caution about taking on debt that seems easy to pay off when you take it on, but sometimes it doesn't work out that easy. I borrowed less than $25,000

cliveh · May 18, 2014

Anyone who is thinking about following a profession in photography today must be very digitally orientated. If this is what you intend to do, would not DPUG be a much more relevant forum for you to explore your thoughts and ideas? Chemical photography is now just one of many fine art mediums.

StoneNYC · May 18, 2014

cliveh said:
Anyone who is thinking about following a profession in photography today must be very digitally orientated. If this is what you intend to do, what not DPUG be a much more relevant forum for you to explore your thoughts and ideas? Chemical photography is now just one of many fine art mediums.

Art is salable, it doesn't have to be all digital, I agree lots of it is these days, but I see a place for the traditional ways.

Don't make me pull out the buggy whip...

Xmas · May 18, 2014

cliveh said:
Anyone who is thinking about following a profession in photography today must be very digitally orientated. If this is what you intend to do, would not DPUG be a much more relevant forum for you to explore your thoughts and ideas? Chemical photography is now just one of many fine art mediums.

I thought that to but a hot news photog said he gets jobs with a wet print portfolio with real grain. Everyone can do DSLR photos and photo shoping is instant dismiss.

A different hot news person says he had given up as the camphone people get email attachments to editors work stations quicker. He was going to do weddings or get an office job, both previously unthinkable.

TheFlyingCamera · May 18, 2014

Xmas said:
I might not have time to look at more than three...
Showing photos to photogs is risky, & if you do know your best three you are going to starve.
The portfolio needs to be slanted to each customers domain. If it is for brides mums one set, for hard news a different set, pano mag ...

If I were interviewing a potential employee, I'd MAKE the time to look at a 20-piece portfolio. I'd also want to see tear sheets from publications their work had been used in - I'd accept a very few IF they were fresh out of school, but someone who had been out and working for a while, I'd expect to see a reasonable amount as part of that portfolio. I would also expect to see a port that reflected the kind of work I'm doing - if I'm a portrait shooter, I'd expect to see portraits; if a wedding shooter, weddings. Products? I'd want to see some kick-ass still life work. DON'T bring a fine-art portfolio to an interview with a commercial shooter - they're going to want to know you can execute every day.

Truzi · May 18, 2014

OK, this is sort of a catch-22 situation, but many colleges and universities offer free or reduced-cost classes to employees. Of course, you have to be able to get a job at the school to qualify (catch-22). It is a thought, though. I started working full-time at the University I am attending, and get "free" classes, up to 6 credit-hours a semester. I work in the IT department, and am working on a degree in experimental psychology and taking music classes as well as whatever interests me. I am a "traditional" student in the old sense of the word... I'm there for an education, not a career. I like to learn.

You would have to find out what the criteria are for an employee to qualify, but I believe that at most schools that do this, any full-time employee would qualify. So, if you have any skill or experience that could land you a job in a given school, you can pursue your interests. Examples would be building and lands maintenance, custodial, general office skills, computer skills, admissions recruitment, etc. In other words, you don't have to be a teacher to get free classes.

Also, and separate from the above idea, look into "continuing education" and "life experience" credits. The latter could potentially decrease the number of required courses (usually with an interview or exam), and thus lower the total cost a bit.

StoneNYC · May 18, 2014

Truzi said:
OK, this is sort of a catch-22 situation, but many colleges and universities offer free or reduced-cost classes to employees. Of course, you have to be able to get a job at the school to qualify (catch-22). It is a thought, though. I started working full-time at the University I am attending, and get "free" classes, up to 6 credit-hours a semester. I work in the IT department, and am working on a degree in experimental psychology and taking music classes as well as whatever interests me. I am a "traditional" student in the old sense of the word... I'm there for an education, not a career. I like to learn.

You would have to find out what the criteria are for an employee to qualify, but I believe that at most schools that do this, any full-time employee would qualify. So, if you have any skill or experience that could land you a job in a given school, you can pursue your interests. Examples would be building and lands maintenance, custodial, general office skills, computer skills, admissions recruitment, etc. In other words, you don't have to be a teacher to get free classes.

Also, and separate from the above idea, look into "continuing education" and "life experience" credits. The latter could potentially decrease the number of required courses (usually with an interview or exam), and thus lower the total cost a bit.

Good ideas for a larger university, this is a tiny college, smaller than my highschool. I'll ask but I highly doubt there are many opportunities for employment.

Photo Engineer · May 18, 2014

Just a quick note on CVs (or Resumes as called in the industry).

The bigger the company, the more they get for any one job. At EK, I have been handed over 100 resumes on a Friday for an intern position for the summer. I've been told to sift them down to the 3 - 10 best for a department meeting on Monday at 8. The group leaders then went over their 3 best. If there was one in common, that was the "golden" person (after some discussion) otherwise there was lots of discussion. If the person was specific to one type of job, say in my group, then the other leaders did not attend. It was me and my supervisor.

So, this is how it goes in a big company, but there were big bucks at stake. We had huge studios in almost every major building with super photographers testing new films or cameras. And, big degrees were not mandatory, portfolio counted along with references in the subject concerned. Sometimes, a candidate was asked to demo his/her skills in the studio as part of the interview.

PE

Steve Smith · May 18, 2014

What is an 'Associates Degree' ?

Steve.

Steve Smith · May 18, 2014

Ken Nadvornick said:
But what happens if the loan is taken out, the education is completed, then the student cannot find a job that pays well enough to begin repaying (within six months after graduation) the loan payments?

In the UK you don't start paying off student loans until you are earning 75% of the national average wage.

When I left school, student loans didn't exist. The government paid the tuition fees and provided a grant to help towards living expenses. Somehow this got turned into a loan.

I believe that governments should be investing in its people and providing them with education instead of debt.

Steve.

StoneNYC · May 18, 2014

Steve Smith said:
What is an 'Associates Degree' ?

Steve.

It is a 2 year degree instead of a 4 year degree.

There is an "Associates Degree" 2 year
And a "Baccalaureate Degree" (also known as Bachelors Degree) 4 year.

It's not as "good" as a 4 year but often many jobs just want to see "more than highschool" in education so the Associates is a lesser form of undergraduate degree.

You can often "roll" an associates degree (classes you've taken) toward a Bachelors degree.

Wayne · May 18, 2014

In some states, other permanent state job gets you free tuition at any state University in that state (usually up to X credits per term, usually about half-time). You don't have to be employed at the University. And in some of those states Community Colleges are part of the state University system too. Won't help Stone but just FYI.

StoneNYC · May 18, 2014

Steve Smith said:
In the UK you don't start paying off student loans until you are earning 75% of the national average wage.

When I left school, student loans didn't exist. The government paid the tuition fees and provided a grant to help towards living expenses. Somehow this got turned into a loan.

I believe that governments should be investing in its people and providing them with education instead of debt.

Steve.

Agreed, this issue and healthcare are the USA's biggest faults for the next generation.

Tom1956 · May 18, 2014

I believe I'd check out what's needed to get an insurance license, and get into commercial lines. Of course stay away from the health insurance angle--that's been turned into a joke and a nightmare for anybody thinking they'll ever be anything but a cubicle worker. And home and auto is not where you want to go. Commercial lines is the area. It's competitive, but an aggressive fellow can carve out quite an income in just a few short years. Source: Son of 2 insurance executives, and brother of a retired Blue Cross rep. The place to be is as an agent representing commercial lines.

Photography School Options - GASP! Stone might finally learn something!

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