Photography School Options - GASP! Stone might finally learn something!

[removed account4]

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[cliveh]

Lol!So that's not my main goal, and have only ever been intimate with one model, that was her choice (when she jumped me after a shoot) and I try to stay away from that cliche, it interrupts my artistic brain...

Occupational hazard, we feel for you.

 

[Ken Nadvornick]

seeing the OP currently has room+board...

As I said, on someone else's dime...

I've worked at several companies where unpaid internships were created and offered. Almost invariably they were offered solely in order to get a ton of work done for absolutely nothing. Usually work that no one else wanted to do, or the company couldn't afford to have done.

There was never even a hint that the internee had any chance whatsoever to eventually land a paying job. In fact, those creating the unpaid positions would laugh under the table at the prospect of getting free work out of some unsuspecting person. As if they were successful American Hustle con men, or something.

The saddest part was to see some poor fresh-faced kid come in and work their butt off because their professor had told them that's what they needed to do to stand out and get noticed. I used to make a point of approaching these kids and trying to give them some deeper exposure to the business, because I knew that's all they were going to get in the end.

Sorry John, but if the best advice that can be given is that the OP needs to buy a $10 fake diploma off eBay to help him land a job that pays nothing, then I think everyone around here has lost their marbles.

Ken

 

[StoneNYC]

As I said, on someone else's dime...

I've worked at several companies where unpaid internships were created and offered. Almost invariably they were offered solely in order to get a ton of work done for absolutely nothing. Usually work that no one else wanted to do, or the company couldn't afford to have done.

There was never even a hint that the internee had any chance whatsoever to eventually land a paying job. In fact, those creating the unpaid positions would laugh under the table at the prospect of getting free work out of some unsuspecting person. As if they were successful American Hustle con men, or something.

The saddest part was to see some poor fresh-faced kid come in and work their butt off because their professor had told them that's what they needed to do to stand out and get noticed. I used to make a point of approaching these kids and trying to give them some deeper exposure to the business, because I knew that's all they were going to get in the end.

Sorry John, but if the best advice that can be given is that the OP needs to buy a $10 fake diploma off eBay to help him land a job that pays nothing, then I think everyone around here has lost their marbles.

Ken

Just call them all "Toodles"

 

[removed account4]

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[Newt_on_Swings]

Buy a plain ticket.... then come here.....

no degree is nessecary - no degree is issued as we are a school without exams..

Photography course - optional classes- room to live in - fellow students from all over the world (15 different contries as we speak) - all the food you can eat - coffee you can drink or develop film in - study trip to Prague (this fall).. and more

All included.

For far less than 25K

just sayin'

Is there a website for more info? This sounds pretty cool.

Also stone, I think the college system is broken now, after undergrad (anthropology and business minor) I couldn't find anything so I did rolled into a MBA program that was also offered by the same state university and got a MBA. But I wanted to work in the photo field which I realized when I finished. Even in nyc its hard for even part time photo work if you don't know anyone, and everyone else is jumping at unpaid internships which is impossible if you want to live and feed yourself here especially saddled with debt. So it's all been part time jobs to make ends meet and such. I'm currently in a teaching role (both analog and digital) it's low pay but it's a consistent paycheck, vs the random freelance design work or event photo stuff I do. I am not sure a photo degree would help you now except put you into a lot of debt that may take awhile to pay off. I have spoken to a number of friends who have MFAs from really good colleges and universities, and they are doing the same grind, part time work designing, teaching, art handling, bar tending, working at art galleries. What it did help them with was to get a few shows of their work under their belt when they graduated and have something of a portfolio. Art is tough.

 

[Patrick Robert James]

Stone, I know you like doing photography, but after looking at your images for the two years that you have been here, I don't think you should pursue it for a living. I think people have talents in life, and they should pursue those things that they do better than others. Photography is not your talent. That may sound harsh to you, but it is real. If you pursue it, you will just struggle because the people that actually have talent will always get hired before you whenever there is any real money involved. I am not saying you should quit photography, because obviously you enjoy it. Going to school for photography is just a massive waste of time and money even for the talented.

One of the biggest fallacies in our society is the phrase "you can do anything you put your mind to." It just isn't true.

 

[StoneNYC]

Stone, I know you like doing photography, but after looking at your images for the two years that you have been here, I don't think you should pursue it for a living. I think people have talents in life, and they should pursue those things that they do better than others. Photography is not your talent. That may sound harsh to you, but it is real. If you pursue it, you will just struggle because the people that actually have talent will always get hired before you whenever there is any real money involved. I am not saying you should quit photography, because obviously you enjoy it. Going to school for photography is just a massive waste of time and money even for the talented.

One of the biggest fallacies in our society is the phrase "you can do anything you put your mind to." It just isn't true.

Wow, you're as bad as ROL... Thanks for the helpful insight into how worthless I am... Photography is my greatest talent, and since that's obviously worthless I might as well just kill myself now...

 

[Truzi]

An unpaid internship is useful for job experience and portfolio material, but one needs money.
After graduating college I did some free work for local newspapers (I have a degree in journalism) so I could build some material and get a paying job. However, I lived with my parents, so it was, technically, on someone else's dime. I also had to buy clothing, commuting costs, and other bills to pay, so found a part-time job at a gas station until I could find gainful employment in one of my degrees.

An unpaid internship isn't always an option. A paid internship/apprenticeship, on the other hand, can be very good.

 

[gandolfi]

Is there a website for more info? This sounds pretty cool.

.

we're working on an English text - for now it is only in Danish...

But in short:

We are a "highschool" which is nothing like the ones you have... It is an old Danish invention (about as old as photography) and it was initially created mostly for farmers to give them a chance to learn a little about other things than pigs /cows and horses - Life if you will...

So no exams..

Now it is still like that, but of course changed a lot: The possibillity to spend one or more semesters, persuing what you love to learn more about... In our case, it means we have these main subjects:

Classic Photography (with me)
Photojournalism (changing to a "Medis subject")
Fashion and Design
Arts
Music
Danish as second language..

We have main subjects monday/wednesday and friday - Tuesday and thursday we have "optional subjects" which could be anything from recykling to photo/music related subjects to Philosophy or film or....

All students live at the school.

So tuition fees are all inclusive (except the costs of materials): All lessons - Food three times a day - coffee/tea - field trips - study trip each semester (about one week)...

Also it is an "open school" which just means you can go make stuff in Arts/Music or other areas when you have time off..

At this time about 15 different nationalities - ranging from Denmark/Greenland/Norway/France/Slovenia/Hungary/Argentina/Mexico/South Africa/Australia/Syria/Afganistan and more...

This means my classes is mostly done in English.

A semester is about 5000$.. all inclusive..
(And if in trouble, the school is rather good at finding solutions, money wise...)

Last: You have to be 18 when you come here, but if you're 100 it is ok too!! (Lots of different ages here, but most are in their twenties)...

web site if you want to take a look: www.vraahojskole.dk

 

[Photo Engineer]

Is there a website for more info? This sounds pretty cool.

Also stone, I think the college system is broken now, after undergrad (anthropology and business minor) I couldn't find anything so I did rolled into a MBA program that was also offered by the same state university and got a MBA. But I wanted to work in the photo field which I realized when I finished. Even in nyc its hard for even part time photo work if you don't know anyone, and everyone else is jumping at unpaid internships which is impossible if you want to live and feed yourself here especially saddled with debt. So it's all been part time jobs to make ends meet and such. I'm currently in a teaching role (both analog and digital) it's low pay but it's a consistent paycheck, vs the random freelance design work or event photo stuff I do. I am not sure a photo degree would help you now except put you into a lot of debt that may take awhile to pay off. I have spoken to a number of friends who have MFAs from really good colleges and universities, and they are doing the same grind, part time work designing, teaching, art handling, bar tending, working at art galleries. What it did help them with was to get a few shows of their work under their belt when they graduated and have something of a portfolio. Art is tough.

Actually, we have too many MFAs, MBAs and others of similar ilk but too few MSs or BSs in science and engineering. NBC did quite an article on this a few months ago about the percentages of those out of work or being under paid vs education TYPE not level.

PE

 

[removed account4]

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[Sirius Glass]

Why dont you buy one degree off the internet and apply for jobs right away?

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Buy a 10$ Diploma off ebay and there you go. A photography degree will be a major waste of time.

Is that how you find your jobs?

Ken

He hires himself for a job and pays himself out of his savings.

He makes up for the small profit in volume.

:crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:
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[MattKing]

Originally Posted by Patrick Robert James (there was a url link here which no longer exists)Stone, I know you like doing photography, but after looking at your images for the two years that you have been here, I don't think you should pursue it for a living. I think people have talents in life, and they should pursue those things that they do better than others. Photography is not your talent. That may sound harsh to you, but it is real. If you pursue it, you will just struggle because the people that actually have talent will always get hired before you whenever there is any real money involved. I am not saying you should quit photography, because obviously you enjoy it. Going to school for photography is just a massive waste of time and money even for the talented.

One of the biggest fallacies in our society is the phrase "you can do anything you put your mind to." It just isn't true.



Wow, you're as bad as ROL... Thanks for the helpful insight into how worthless I am... Photography is my greatest talent, and since that's obviously worthless I might as well just kill myself now...

I'm not going to necessarily agree with Patrick, but I will agree with John Nanian's post.

Patrick's comments are far more valuable to you than laudatory comments from someone else, unless that someone else is either paying you or giving you something (like a degree or a valuable referral) that will result in money or valuable opportunities.

Photography is often a vicious vocation. If all this thread does is help you build a thicker skin, it will still help you.

If you think the critics here are tough, try practicing law!

A school is a good idea, as long as it challenges you to accomplish things yourself.

If I could help you find what you need, I'd be happy to do so.

 

[Tom1956]

You can't whack yourself. If you do that, you'll win the powerball lottery the very next day. And besides, you could just as well botch the job and and up a vegetable, unable to finish the job. Besides, you know me, and nobody who knows me can never knock themselves over. So it looks like you're gonna just have to keep breathing.
Like my Dad says, at least you're on the right side of the ground.

Edit: Click on my top link below and crank up the volume. If that doesn't perk a body up, they're already stiff.

 

[cliveh]

As someone who has worked in education as a photographic lecturer for many years and also studied on a quite intensive course in my late teens and early twenties, I have mixed feeling s about a photographic education. The plus side is that you get the time to explore your own ideas and have the benefit of interaction with fellow students with similar enthusiasm and new ideas and this is great. However, for about a year before starting my college course I worked as an assistant to a very experienced photographer and in that time I learned more than in my entire time at college. However, I do understand every experience can be different and my general message would be find the visual area that interests you and adopt a consistent approach through method and process and then practice, practice, practice and practice again. The benefit of this is never ending and like many on APUG I am still trying to improve.

 

[StoneNYC]

As someone who has worked in education as a photographic lecturer for many years and also studied on a quite intensive course in my late teens and early twenties, I have mixed feeling s about a photographic education. The plus side is that you get the time to explore your own ideas and have the benefit of interaction with fellow students with similar enthusiasm and new ideas and this is great. However, for about a year before starting my college course I worked as an assistant to a very experienced photographer and in that time I learned more than in my entire time at college. However, I do understand every experience can be different and my general message would be find the visual area that interests you and adopt a consistent approach through method and process and then practice, practice, practice and practice again. The benefit of this is never ending and like many on APUG I am still trying to improve.

Thanks, I've assisted before for a very successful vogue photographer, and did learn a lot, but there is just a lot I don't know on the photoshop end and printing etc and business. I stopped assisting the photographer because I submitted a piece (I can't show here) to a contest "for the heck of it" to something he also submitted to, and somehow (even though I'm apparently talentless) I was accepted into the running, and he was upset that I got into the same competition he did and stopped hiring me (and actually completely cut off communication with me).

I don't even remember what piece it was, but it was probably something similar to this...

http://www.dpug.org/gallery/showimage.php?i=1747&c=32

If I typed that right...

 

[Lee Rust]

Stone,

I can vouch for the GEH as a good place to be an intern as I've watched a few people transition into paid positions over the past year. But things ain't what they used to be and these kinds of institutions no longer have as many deep pockets behind them. The days when Kodak dollars flowed freely to the George Eastman House photo archives and museum are gone for good. Now they have to scramble for contributions and keep track of every penny. There are only so many positions open at a time, no matter how talented and eager the applicants.

Many of us older folks who earned degrees and started careers even as recently as 15 years ago might be shocked at the situation that graduates are faced with these days. Big debts and no jobs. I couldn't imagine starting my working life with 50 to 100 thousand in college loans to pay off right from the outset.

That being said, I still think you should aim high, but stay open-minded and flexible. The ground is constantly shifting and you need to be able to change course quickly. Networking and getting to know people is more important than ever, but I'm not talking about Linked In. You must already have friends in the movie business .. where might that lead you? One problem with committing to a multi-year degree program is that you might end up getting left behind by technology or culture. Things are spinning that fast.

I just bought a book by Ralph Lambrecht about analog printing techniques (Way Beyond Monochrome) that was originally written in 2002 and revised in 2011. Didn't I recently hear that Ralph had decided to devote most of his energies to digital? What's happened in the past three years to change his direction? The newest career in Hollywood these days seems to be quad-copter piloting for aerial camera shots, even though commercial drone flying is still technically illegal. Who would have imagined such a thing just two years ago? I just got the paper version of the B&H Photo catalog last week and was surprised to see a whole section devoted to quad-copter drones and GoPro cameras, but not a single page of darkroom supplies.

My daughter got a fine arts degree in sculpture and now five years later she's in California making music videos. There was no plan for that. Who knew?

So, go for it, but keep your eyes and mind wide open. Avoid big debt. Try to meet a wealthy woman.

 

[Light Guru]

Thanks, I've assisted before for a very successful vogue photographer, and did learn a lot, but there is just a lot I don't know on the photoshop end and printing etc and business.

Well you certainly don't have to have a college degree to know those things. Check out lynda.com it's a great online place to learn all of that. Sign up for their free trial and take some of their classes for free.

 

[Wayne]

No. Nor have I chosen to live inside cardboard boxes under freeway overpasses, and eat my meals from garbage cans.

Pretty obvious choices to not make, those three...



Ken

Plenty of people get their start or get ahead by volunteering, I'm not sure why you are analogizing it with being homeless garbage eating. I got my start in my field by volunteering. But you have to have enough to live on while you're doing it, and it sounds like that may not be the case for Stone right now. But he shouldn't dismiss the idea entirely. It can open the right doors.

 

[Richard Man]

Every StoneNYC post will be a 50+ page epic.

StoneNYC: don't waste your time. It's better to <be a singer, marry Bill Gates, sell chestnuts on street>.
StoneNYC: Great to aspire to great0greatness! Good luck!
StoneNYC: May be you can just move to Poland and change your name.

 

[pdjr1991]

If you decide on higher education, go for your full bachelors. If you have to, do your gen eds at a local community college and your core classes in your institution. An associates really does not have much meaning anymore. Sad but true. I have to get a masters to teach in my state.

 

[chriscrawfordphoto]

Thanks, I've assisted before for a very successful vogue photographer, and did learn a lot, but there is just a lot I don't know on the photoshop end and printing etc and business. I stopped assisting the photographer because I submitted a piece (I can't show here) to a contest "for the heck of it" to something he also submitted to, and somehow (even though I'm apparently talentless) I was accepted into the running, and he was upset that I got into the same competition he did and stopped hiring me (and actually completely cut off communication with me).

I don't even remember what piece it was, but it was probably something similar to this...

http://www.dpug.org/gallery/showimage.php?i=1747&c=32

If I typed that right...

He's not only cut off communication with you, he's told every other photographer in NYC that you've stepped on his toes. In a world where who you know is EVERYTHING, you have likely killed any chance of making a living there, regardless of how many degrees you get.

 

[StoneNYC]

He's not only cut off communication with you, he's told every other photographer in NYC that you've stepped on his toes. In a world where who you know is EVERYTHING, you have likely killed any chance of making a living there, regardless of how many degrees you get.

Don't plan to work there and it was innocent, I didn't even know it was something he was in, and when I found out I was shocked I was accepted and was humbled and excited... He felt different apparently.

 

[StoneNYC]

Well you certainly don't have to have a college degree to know those things. Check out lynda.com it's a great online place to learn all of that. Sign up for their free trial and take some of their classes for free.

Not everyone learns the same, I've watched hundreds of tutorials on Photoshop but it just doesn't make sense to me, I need an actual classroom environment so that's what I'm doing.