Photography School Options - GASP! Stone might finally learn something!

If you want to be a photographer, go to school and study photography. I looked at the Paier website. It looks interesting. Their 4 year program has view camera, and alternative, courses. Maybe you can take them as AA electives. Maybe you find the 2 year experience to be beneficial and decide to continue for the 4 year degree (ask if AA credits transfer). Personally, I think you'd thrive in that sort of environment. You're talented and driven. What you've lacked is focus (no pun intended), and have spent too much time chasing magic bullets, and jumping between emulsions/developers/formats/subject matter. You seem to have simplified your photo materials/interests, and you're ready for the next step.
I think you have a strong, dynamic personality, and would end up being seen as a leader amongst your classmates. As I said, I'd spend a couple hours at Paier. Ask questions... look at the facilities... see what the photo students do/talk about while they're drinking coffee in the common areas.

Hallmark got bought by a private entity a couple of years ago, so it's probably not the same sort of institution it was when your friend went there.

NH Institute of Art has a full degree program and an excellent photography program, but it's not exactly within commuting distance from anywhere in CT. On the + side, it's probably cheaper to live in Manchester than anywhere in CT.

StoneNYC said:

My dad's advice has always been to find a rich woman who only wants to worship me and make life easy... Not very helpful...

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It's practical, loving advice: How to make it in the arts – marry rich. You won't learn it in photography school, though many there are trust fund rich. As evidenced by your forum activity (for those that don't already know, Stone is equally problematic on LFPF), you apparently don't want to learn from others and that would presumably include a "LOT of academia". You will not do well in a structured learning environment. I haven't noticed any particular aptitude in photography. Here's my unexpurgated advice: Jump at Gandolfi's offer and don't look back. Even if you don't discover the photographer or the artist in you, it may take you down a road of to as of yet unknown strengths, if you give yourself over to it. That last phrase is absolutely crucial to your development, whatever path you choose.

A lot of young people are in Stone's boat With 4 year degrees and beyond. It's a crying shame, but things will get better. In the meantime, I'd still say to point towards business and finance and forget "the arts" and all that. There's a jillion young hands with digital cameras out there thinking they're going to be "big time photographer". And they all seem to be shooting the same junk I see on the Yahoo News page and rolling my eyes at every day.
Study finance, find and marry a rich woman, and take a small allowance from her--nothing extravagant and selfish--and start investing. A good woman won't let you be a spendthrift parasite, but she will be glad to see you make something of what she gave you. And in just a few years, you'll stand on the same ground with her and have her respect. And you'll have your self-respect for the responsible manly way you did something.
Sorry--just mouthing off. Best wishes Stone ole' buddy. You'll pull a rabbit out of the hat sooner or later.

If you know the basics, assist for a photographer that is working that you like. A degree is just a piece of paper. Photo degrees are not worth $50k. It's like chefs school. Better work as a chefs apprentice.

Having graduated from a fairly specialized field (cough, cough awhile ago, cough; MS in 1992), I say to get a broad education that can be applied in many ways. I really think a business degree would be a good idea with as much photography you can get by assisting. If you do need an Associates in photography, get business classes on the side somehow. You say you'll go back and do them at night, but getting them sooner is better than putting them off.
Of the schools you mentioned, I'd check out Paier.

It might be pointed out that the highest degree of unemployment is among those with business degrees and the lowest is among those with technical / scientific degrees. This was a feature news article on NBC recently. This is as a percentage of graduates.

No disrespect, just a comment on the job market and the number of people entering the various fields.

PE

Taking some business classes with the Photography stuff will be be a great asset, a young ambitious feller not scared to ask questions should do fine. Your still young Stone and have a long way to go," just dig in and give it what you got Pilgrim"

John Wayne.

A photography degree is not going to teach you any more photography than you already know, the only useful thing it can be to you is a ticket into a job. However IMHO, there is no way that $25-50k of debt is a reasonable price to get into a job that requires a photography degree. And who the hell is asking for one as a pre-requisite? If you're applying for photo jobs and they care more about a degree than your work, run the other way, fast. If you're applying for non-photo jobs, then an AFA/BFA is still not going to get you anywhere. So IMHO and in your case, I see absolutely no value in doing an AFA and definitely not at $25k.

Compute the return on investment. What is the salary increase you can expect as a result of the degree? How long will it take for that increase to pay back the cost of the degree plus interest on it? My guess, for a BFA at $50k, is "not in your lifetime".

If you want to make money from photos, start your own business. No two ways about it, and even then it's a high-risk venture. You probably need some business-management training but it doesn't need to be fancy or high-price: you want the knowledge not the piece of paper, so go to community college or something. As PE says, a business degree is a ticket to nowhere unless you intend to be self-employed, or you already have a technical degree and then get an MBA in order to be a senior exec at a larger technical organisation... and no offense Stone, but that ain't you.

If you want to make money in a non-photo field, you MUST get a degree directly relevant to the job that you want. A BFA won't get you into anything except someone else's portrait studio, which is not a career. You already know photography so the AFA would be really easy to get, but it won't get you anywhere you're not going already. It has, IMHO, no value to you.

polyglot said:

A BFA won't get you into anything except someone else's portrait studio...

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That's BS. I have a BFA. The cost has more than paid for itself. I, and the vast majority of those I went to school with, are self-employed and making a living in the field.
I have to wonder how many who dismiss the idea of pursuing a degree in photography actually have one.

eddie said:

That's BS. I have a BFA. The cost has more than paid for itself. I, and the vast majority of those I went to school with, are self-employed and making a living in the field.
I have to wonder how many who dismiss the idea of pursuing a degree in photography actually have one.

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No body is saying that spending time learning photography is not worth it what people are saying is that there are plenty of cheeper ways of learning photography then getting a BFA.

When people are looking to hire you do they ever ask to see your degree? NOPE!!! They ask to see your portfolio.

polyglot said:

A photography degree is not going to teach you any more photography than you already know, the only useful thing it can be to you is a ticket into a job. However IMHO, there is no way that $25-50k of debt is a reasonable price to get into a job that requires a photography degree. And who the hell is asking for one as a pre-requisite? If you're applying for photo jobs and they care more about a degree than your work, run the other way, fast. If you're applying for non-photo jobs, then an AFA/BFA is still not going to get you anywhere. So IMHO and in your case, I see absolutely no value in doing an AFA and definitely not at $25k.

Compute the return on investment. What is the salary increase you can expect as a result of the degree? How long will it take for that increase to pay back the cost of the degree plus interest on it? My guess, for a BFA at $50k, is "not in your lifetime".

If you want to make money from photos, start your own business. No two ways about it, and even then it's a high-risk venture. You probably need some business-management training but it doesn't need to be fancy or high-price: you want the knowledge not the piece of paper, so go to community college or something. As PE says, a business degree is a ticket to nowhere unless you intend to be self-employed, or you already have a technical degree and then get an MBA in order to be a senior exec at a larger technical organisation... and no offense Stone, but that ain't you.

If you want to make money in a non-photo field, you MUST get a degree directly relevant to the job that you want. A BFA won't get you into anything except someone else's portrait studio, which is not a career. You already know photography so the AFA would be really easy to get, but it won't get you anywhere you're not going already. It has, IMHO, no value to you.

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Polyglot, you're a smart man. I guess things is Australia are a lot like they are in the US. Strapping yourself down with a big college debt at this juncture in American history is a ticket to slavery. Further, I have concluded that academia has devolved into a confidence racket of the shadiest kind. When they tell you it's 25,000 dollars, double that figure and you'll be halfway right. But then having insider observation at a family member who is a retired "professor of nothing" from Kent State, I have a hard time respecting anything from academia outside of hard science or business. And even then, those who can, do; and those who can't, teach. It would be idiotic of me to call all of academia a con racket, but very much of it indeed is. Most assuredly, it doesn't command the respect from me that I'd give PE's generation. But then those older guys are from a whole other ethic than is even allowed to be taught now.

Edit: This is Stone's thread and he has asked his photographic friends for guidance. Our rants are outside purview. I still go with his Dad's advice. He seems to have a knack with the ladies. Go with that. Filter the choices with a new attitude. A good woman is a gift from God, and if you make wise use and investment of her greater assets, you'll enjoy a prosperous life that no school will ever match. I think his Pop is right.

I don't even know where to begin, there's a lot of negativity here and almost none of it had to do with what the OP was about, asking those who might have heard of or been to the schools.

Anyway since then I have essentially decided on Paier.

I still have a lot of questions to ask, I know the credits are transferable and yes they have a 4 year BFA and you can apply the 2 year directly to the 4 year if I wanted to continue.

I'm pretty sure those that are talking about the cost of $25,000 obviously have NO CLUE of the cost of normal colleges these days, that's CHEAP. Most other schools will run about $50,000 PER YEAR or more...

Thanks for those that complimented my ability to be a photographer, there are many things I do know, but as MANY point out, I don't know how to print in the darkroom, and I don't know a THING about photoshop, and in the real world I'll need to have at least the basics of the digital side of things. This will also teach me things I don't know, and fill in the gaps.

As far as those that say you don't need the paper, I couldn't even work at a photography museum without at least an Associates. I also recently applied to a job that a friend worked at as an assistant to the teacher (called para-professional) in a school for troubled youth because he asked me to because he knows how good I am with kids, the dean was very excited about me and wanted to hire me until he found out I didn't even have an associates and told me he couldn't hire me without one, and it didn't matter what kind of associates as long as I had the paper. This has been true of a few jobs I've encountered.

To be clear, my intention is to learn photography to know more, and to have a better understanding of things I'm missing, like I don't know HOW to put together a portfolio ... What's it supposed to look like, what images are best etc. Stuff I need to know to get a job in the field. "All that matters is your portfolio" isn't very accurate thinking, if I applied to national geographic they would want more than a portfolio... Just as an obvious example.

Also, workshops don't offer scholarships and financial aid...

If I could afford to take a workshop I would have been up in Rochester learning from PE every time he held one...

I'm going to take some business type courses but I know that if I do too much academia, I will not learn as much as my interest level will drop and my brain will shut down, I know myself enough to know this to be very very true.

Thank you Eddie...

I'll look at NH but I don't want to start out on a 4 year degree course so if they don't offer 2 year courses of study, then it may not work, but I will ask about transferring credits from Paier, I know they can transfer to all but one state school, and they are trying to figure out why the one state school changed their acceptance of the credit and how to get them back (as apparently they used to accept their credit). It's a very small school but my friend who goes there says it's really great so that's one recommendation. Unfortunately graduation is happening and I'm not sure that anyone will be there for the summer to ask questions of the students, but I'll try.

ROL, I don't think anyone has every spoken to me in such a horrible way, I have no words for how mean you just were, truly, just horrible....

There's no "assisting" these days unless you live in NYC and as I said, I don't want that, the photo trade has changed and photographers around this area don't hire assistants for their gigs, and the assisting jobs don't pay what they used to either. I've done it, but the jobs are few and far between, I'm sure making connections with the professors will also help me find more jobs, so perhaps their connections will help where I have none.

I will look into business classes on the side for sure, perhaps during the summer's off or something. But the business courses would be for leaning how to run my own business not for becoming a businessman.

I also have experience in banking and for that I don't NEED the degree at a certain level, but only because I have connections from years ago. But even those are few and I'm exhausting those favors fast. So this is more shoot learning photography and also having a backup plan by getting the associates.

To polyglots point, the increase for the job I lost by not having the degree compared to my previous salary was almost exactly the cost of one year at Paier, yup, I would have been making $15,000 more if I had had the Associates degree. Instead I have NO job... Which is even worse... So obviously there is a benefit to having a degree in this world.

If I knew how to start my own business don't you think I would have already?

I have to agree with Eddie on this one too, I wonder how many here who are commenting are actually successful photographed supporting their family on photography alone, because those are the people I want to hear from.... Donald Trump once told me (yes in person) "never take advice from anyone who isn't already successful at the thing you are trying to accomplish"

EDIT: PS, it's not a question of IF I go at this point, it's a question of WHERE, so pleas please refrain from discouraging me from going to school (who does that anyway? Seriously?) I would prefer to just get advice about art school. Thanks.

You stated your intention was because many places you apply require at least an Associate's degree. It is sad that many places won't consider someone without a degree, but it has been that way for some time. To that end, it is probably better you get a degree, not certificate, and it may help that it be from an accredited college/university.

I do have a certificate from a computer tech school, though it did have a partnership for an Associate's degree with a local college. I did not go for the Associate's, though (instead I went to a university and earned a couple BA's, and am currently procrastinating on... umm... I mean working on an MA).

In the scenario you outline, the degree is more important than the area it is in, and while you should get something related to what you want to do, you will perform better if the major is something you are interested in. Something technical would probably be more useful; and there is a certain benefit if the degree is in an area you can also earn some sort of licensure. This all applies to the general idea of employers requiring any degree, though, so take it in that context.

As you pointed out, a 2-year program that can lead into a 4-year is important (some places will make you do the entire 4-year separately). Sorry, I've no suggestions or comments on actual schools.

Now, if if anyone feels I've said anything pragmatic or responsible in this post, I will vehemently deny it

Truzi said:

You stated your intention was because many places you apply require at least an Associate's degree. It is sad that many places won't consider someone without a degree, but it has been that way for some time. To that end, it is probably better you get a degree, not certificate, and it may help that it be from an accredited college/university.

I do have a certificate from a computer tech school, though it did have a partnership for an Associate's degree with a local college. I did not go for the Associate's, though (instead I went to a university and earned a couple BA's, and am currently procrastinating on... umm... I mean working on an MA).

In the scenario you outline, the degree is more important than the area it is in, and while you should get something related to what you want to do, you will perform better if the major is something you are interested in. Something technical would probably be more useful; and there is a certain benefit if the degree is in an area you can also earn some sort of licensure. This all applies to the general idea of employers requiring any degree, though, so take it in that context.

As you pointed out, a 2-year program that can lead into a 4-year is important (some places will make you do the entire 4-year separately). Sorry, I've no suggestions or comments on actual schools.

Now, if if anyone feels I've said anything pragmatic or responsible in this post, I will vehemently deny it

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Good points, thanks

And yes they allow the 2 year to become a 4 year at Paier (and it's essentially the same courses the first 2 years of the 4 year anyway. It's accredited on some way and as I said the state schools (all but one) accept transfers, I'll learn more about that before I take the plunge.

This is what I got from your website link...




Perhaps in the end, the "technical" job I'll get will be fixing cameras haha

PS thanks!

Donald Trump was right. And your Dad is right. That's 2 rights. and 2 rights never make a wrong. Looks to me you know how to ask the right people. With that, be sure to not waste too much time learning what you already know. GL.

Tom1956 said:

Donald Trump was right. And your Dad is right. That's 2 rights. and 2 rights never make a wrong. Looks to me you know how to ask the right people. With that, be sure to not waste too much time learning what you already know. GL.

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2 years of learning is never a waste, even if I THINK I already know it all

My grandfather also said "they'll always tell you "it's impossible, it can't be done" never listen to them, they just haven't figured it out yet" this he says in his state of advanced Alzheimer's Dementia...

2 cents.

Unless you plan to teach or work as an archivist (for example), I really don't see the degree helping *that* much. If you want to work as a photographer, then as others have written, persistence, extremely good work ethic etc. will do more for you imo. Knowing how to play well with others also goes a very long way.

As for digital, real world is you can't just have 'the basics of photoshop' etc.. You need to be extremely proficient, if not, then you're going to have to pay someone to do your pp (which many do fwiw).

lastly….Gandolfi's offer ? I'd be making for Denmark and the Little Mermaid double time if I were you...

if there are schools are nearby, and you don't want to jump in all the way
often times they offer summer courses or classes to the general public
that you don't need to be "admitted" to the school to take. it might be
a good way to get your feet wet and see what it is like in that sort of environment.
a big part of going to art school as a student is going with an empty mind and
being willing to learn from both your teachers and peers, and allowing yourself
to be "critiqued" learning from what people say (both good and bad) about your work+presentation
chosen project, shooting style &c, and making better images as a result.

if you haven't seen art school confidential, its a pretty good film.

(added later )

you could also ask if you could spend a day in the school on a campus visit ( as a perspective student )
so you can see what it is like ( take / survey classes &c is another option if they offer it )
right now might or might not be a good time to do this though .. end of the year means people
are ALL running on fumes, short tempers, + freaking out because of finals and final crits
but then again you will see what it is like at the end of each year ... the "final push " as they say

Stone,
I have spent almost 40 years in education, so I am not unbiased in the question of the power of schooling. Degrees are another matter. Paier is a good place. Hallmark was a very good place (pre-sale, don't know now). The state college system in CT is solid and a very good value. I think study in any of these places could very easily do two things. The first is that they will introduce you to new things, both in photography and in other areas of learning. This is never a bad thing, but you have to be ready and open to it. From your comments about not wanting too much academic learning, I'm not sure you are. That is not a value judgement, just an observation. The second thing that school will do is more complicated and also much more immediate. You will not really have any money or time for anything but school. In order to make the most of your investment you will have to dive in at the deep and start swimming right away- no treading water while you think about why you're there. That has to be done before you plunk down the money.

Degrees may be helpful, but it seems to me that they are most helpful in networking, not in themselves. The learning that those are supposed to signify is definitely worthwhile.

Good luck

If you can get one, an internship at GEH is not to be sneezed at! And you can affiliate with RIT or Ryerson.

PE

Whitey brings up a good point about networking. When I first finished, the school connections I made led to many jobs. One of the professors was contacted about a lab job, recommended me, and I ended up working there over a year (a good experience- printing for others, including the Smithsonian). I got my HS teaching position the same way. I also had freelance jobs referred to me by previous graduates, when the job didn't pay enough for them but, to me, it was good money. My connections still pay dividends, decades later. A few years ago, I was contacted by a major northeastern university about a quick, high paying job. I accepted, knowing that I could borrow a friend's studio and digital camera for it.

StoneNYC said:

As far as those that say you don't need the paper, I couldn't even work at a photography museum without at least an Associates. I also recently applied to a job that a friend worked at as an assistant to the teacher (called para-professional) in a school for troubled youth because he asked me to because he knows how good I am with kids, the dean was very excited about me and wanted to hire me until he found out I didn't even have an associates and told me he couldn't hire me without one, and it didn't matter what kind of associates as long as I had the paper. This has been true of a few jobs I've encountered.

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The types of jones you mention here are NOT jobs as a photographer so they might require some kind of a degree.

So this goes back to the question I asked in my first response. Do you want to work as a photographer or do you want to work doing something else? If you want to work doing something else then sure a degree would be helpful, but if you want to work as a photographer a framed diploma on the wall is not going to get you work your portfolio is.

StoneNYC said:

Also, workshops don't offer scholarships and financial aid...

If I could afford to take a workshop I would have been up in Rochester learning from PE every time he held one.

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So you can't afford a workshop that's maybe a few thousand but you fan afford school tuition that's 25,000 or more even with financial add the workshops are still cheeper?

StoneNYC said:

There's no "assisting" these days unless you live in NYC and as I said, I don't want that, the photo trade has changed and photographers around this area don't hire assistants for their gigs, and the assisting jobs don't pay what they used to either. I've done it, but the jobs are few and far between, I'm sure making connections with the professors will also help me find more jobs, so perhaps their connections will help where I have none.

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Now that all depends kind of assisting you are talking about. Wedding and portrait photographers use assistants all the time, and I know that plenty of weddings and portraits are taken outside of NYC.

So again I ask do you want to work as a photographer or as something else? If you want to work as a photographer then what kind of photographer? Without knowing those answers we cannot help point you in the right direction.

bdial said:

NH Institute of Art has a full degree program and an excellent photography program, but it's not exactly within commuting distance from anywhere in CT. On the + side, it's probably cheaper to live in Manchester than anywhere in CT.

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is it still affordable to live in manchester ?
wsn't it called "manch-vegas" and "man-cha-cha"
by a lot of folks because it was sooo "upscale"

===

an apprenticeship might not be a bad idea

I forgot to mention one potential problem you may encounter; the difference between theory and practice. If you take courses in subjects you already have some knowledge, you may feel they are wrong. There (usually) are not - it's just part of the process.

For example, I had worked in the mental health field a few years before pursuing graduate studies in psychology. Sometimes we would be taught things that seemed patently wrong, compared to real-world situations. I had to remind myself it was education, which is necessarily general and built on research as well as field studies. It is difficult to teach to all potential situations, and the important part is the base knowledge. Applying that to the real world is a different concept. (Refer to Rodney Dangerfield's movie Back to School - the scenes in the business class. The analogy works if you ignore how the professor is being portrayed (since the scenes are used to build the plot and characters). Also, notice how Dangerfield does not take issue in classes where he has no previous knowledge or experience.)

So if something strikes you as wrong in class, think of it being much like discussions here regarding film development. Manufacturer suggestions are a starting point based on very well defined and (usually) standardized criteria. That is what you will be learning in any subject. It is not wrong, even if it seems to be compared to your preferences, work-flow, or experiences. It didn't take me too long to work this out, but I have seen others return to school and struggle with this concept for the entire program.