Human instructions but there are no requirements of knowledge or talents in art, just pointing to databases with art.
Photography AI as art
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Human instructions but there are no requirements of knowledge or talents in art, just pointing to databases with art.
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- Sirius Glass
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- Reason: duplicate
Since when has talent been a requirement in art?
The real problem with AI generated or altered images is one can no longer trust any image on a screen.
The AI I've seen has a very long way to go, but so did the Daguerreotype.
I say this about current practices of mixing music digitally - all gets brickwalled almost to the clipping level - all nuance lost, everything is loud, oversaturated and screaming at you. Why? Because Loudness Wars and because they can fiddle with sliders and because everyone else is doing so, competing with screaming.
Strongly disagree.
I have access to digital camera, but I just don't enjoy it, don't like the endless options and the workflow involving screens and software. So I shoot film and make slides - very laborious and involving.
For me it's not a question of convenience and the final image isn't what I'm solely after actually. I'm not trying to please an algorithm on any given social network or platform or arrive at said picture the most convenient way. It's the experience where learning as an individual via practicing my hobby is essential, especially if I love every second of it. It's about the journey to me and self-development. AI doesn't participate here and never will.
I have access to "millions of songs" as they say on streaming platforms, and I feel that it devalues the music unlike anything else - piracy has nothing on streaming, overexposure is bad. The same applies to movie streaming.
Taste-building involves work and discrimination, collection-building - even more so.
So I choose the imperfectly perfect sounding and very inconvenient analog format: vinyl. And I'm not trying to compete with digital files/streaming convenience by doing so.
And again - I'm enjoying the journey, the slower workflow and hurdles which make me enjoy my music that much more - help me to be careful, attentive and mindful when listening, because it came to me via some suffering by paying a decent sum for a plastic disc with grooves on it, screens not involved. And at the end of the day - it just sounds different, its sound isn't brickwalled. Vinyl doesn't scream at you and therefore has a lot of room for nuance for my ears to enjoy.
Reject the all-devaluing convenience and enjoy your hobbies. And enjoy some of the ideas people come up with via AI tools. I can do both, you can too probably.
Now, if I was an illustrator/animator - AI would hurt my income of course, but market will decide that anyway and there will always be those that prefer analog - maybe we're sufficient in numbers enough to keep some niche business alive, like photographic film business.
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AI-assisted image making is not "pointing to databases with art". There's not database with art that you pick from by giving a prompt. It doesn't work like that. Part of what makes the discussion on AI always very fuzzy is that people (understandably) don't realize what they're dealing with and how it works. In this sense, it's a very much like bitcoin/crypto currency, although in that instance, most people seem to readily admit they don't understand how the technical underpinnings work. With AI, many people seem to think they know how it works, while in fact getting the basic principles totally wrong, as evidenced in the quote above.
MattKing
Moderator
The word I disagree with here is "all".
Yes, I've heard lots of examples of what you reference.
But I've also heard the results of some really fine work.
And in many cases, that is work from independent musical artists who would have had no access to professional level equipment and technicians in the past.
As with so much else, trends and tastes change, but high quality exists independent of them.
I surely hope that I'm ending up exaggerating this a bit, but the problem exists and persists and has fiddled with genres I love, although I'm more into the often self-produced and extreme underground:
en.m.wikipedia.org
en.m.wikipedia.org
Loudness war - Wikipedia
File:Masvis-zz top-sharp dressed man.gif - Wikipedia
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I understand and sympathize with @Ivo Stunga on the loudness issue, or perhaps more appropriately the habit of compression and normalization, which removes all dynamics from the music. And yes, it even happens in classical music some of the time; those particular recordings are godawful to have to sit through.
It is.
Yesterday I got, unpacked and listened for the first time vinyl release of Oranssi Pazuzu album Mestarin Kynsi - a Psychedelic Black Metal album full of sonic exploration of both Extreme Metal and Electronic music, even some strings.
Having been used to digital masters and versions coming from streaming, I was blown away by the dynamics, layers and sounds present on vinyl and clearly audible, well separated, not getting in the way of each other, and we - 3 listeners in the room, found that to be extremely refreshing and pleasing. High Fidelity indeed.
So - even niche of the niches - Black Metal - got tainted by loudness wars and vinyl is often a great antidote to this behavior, because the format itself presents limitations and demands care and attention to sound great.
Again - limitations for the cause of good!
Yesterday I got, unpacked and listened for the first time vinyl release of Oranssi Pazuzu album Mestarin Kynsi - a Psychedelic Black Metal album full of sonic exploration of both Extreme Metal and Electronic music, even some strings.
Having been used to digital masters and versions coming from streaming, I was blown away by the dynamics, layers and sounds present on vinyl and clearly audible, well separated, not getting in the way of each other, and we - 3 listeners in the room, found that to be extremely refreshing and pleasing. High Fidelity indeed.
So - even niche of the niches - Black Metal - got tainted by loudness wars and vinyl is often a great antidote to this behavior, because the format itself presents limitations and demands care and attention to sound great.
Again - limitations for the cause of good!
Very much so; perhaps not as much as the 'pop' music that gets most of the airplay, but there's a truckload of stuff in the broader metal stream (and undoubtedly black metal specifically too) that's compressed to undifferentiated fuzzy mush as well. I suppose it takes a recording engineer who actually understands dynamics (and music) to begin with. But that's not my field of expertise; I only know that it's ridiculous if Shostakovich puts ppp or fff in his score and everything ends up at the same dB(a) level when played back. Something's not right if that happens.
Yup, a crime.
… which begs a more ‘difficult’ question: Given that all photographs are products of algorithms (i.e., either physical/chemical or electronic/logical processes not directly decodable by the viewer), what kind of “certainty” (if any) is available?
In this (and other forums) we see lots of arguments about the difference between digital and analog photography that directly or indirectly revolve around these kinds of questions.
The current generation of AI technologies posits an additional layer of uncertainty—which is certainly NOT limited to questions or art or photography.
I choose to use photography as a way of exploring and addressing these kinds of questions. But, at the end of the day, given the choice between ‘certainty’ and ‘profitability’ which do you think will always win?
Ivo, you're an unusual photographer to begin with just shooting film, like me. But for many, AI will take the "need" to get out in the real world, that's all I'm saying. Regarding illustrators, my friend was one and was driven out of business long before AI with Photoshop Illustrator and all the computer programs 25 years ago.
Some of the best combine natural talent with computer assistance. I went to see a Broadway show yesterday with my wife, Death Becomes Her, for my birthday. We sat near the orchestra pit. The only one you could see was the leader with earphones, a computer music sheet, and various other electronic equipment used to coordinate the show's music with the acts. He needed to be on top to watch and coordinate the music with the actors, the rest of the musicians hidden in the pit. The music was from real instruments although I don't know if extra sounds and musical influence were added electronically. The point is, that much modern music relies heavily on computers to improve the final music and coordination. I will say this, I was disappointed with the sound we heard where we were seated, too many tweeters and not enough bass. Some theaters have better sound than others the way they were designed, something many people don't realize.
David Szauder is making high quality AI still images and video that retains his distinctive style. If you use instagram he’s quite active there and regularly shares incredible work.
It might just mean that your amp has automatic gain control!
That's not what an algorithm is, though. It appears you mean "given that all photographs are ultimately encoded information in some way." And the result of those chemical and digital processes is very much directly decidable by humans - that's why they're encoded that way in the first place.
Note also the fundamental difference between digital algorithms as we've used them since roughly the 1940s and the black-box nature of trained neural networks involved in AI.
Loudness helps us old folks.
It appears to benefit the young as well, given the interesting sensations I experience when a hot hatch with a couple of young guys pulls up next to me at the traffic lights!
Hehe yeah, that's also a possibility - although not with the 50-year old Pioneer in the living room! The only 'automatic' it has is that the sound goes away after you press the power button.
It was time for him to go. Most illustrators I know embrace all the technology available to them.
I am sure you’re correct. I was thinking about how most human beings use cameras, which to me appears to involve algorithms employed by both the photographer and the camera: The photographer constructs a plan, we’ll call a composition. (Planning is (or was) a big topic in early AI research—don’t know about now…) Next, either the photographer or the camera performs some algorithm to determine correct exposure; eventually, the camera performs a series of instructions to translate the photographers instructions into what appears to be a faithful and counterfactual representation of what must have been before the camera at some point in time and space. (Note, we are excluding photograms, and other kinds of images that are generated within a closed system … ).
Too bad our social development has not had a chance to react and evolve fully in its handling of the arrival of the internet before AI presented its own set of challenges.
Back around 2000 when the university I worked at started their search for a candidate for a tenure track photo position, I wrote the search committee about what I saw as a possible future of the photo program at the university. As just a staff person, my input was not appreciated, but I suggested the future would best be served by keeping wet photography alive and well, and not limit digital photography to just being a new method of photography, but to consider digital photography as part (and start) of a larger world of digital art. A quarter century later, I still think along those lines...and with AI, even more so.
Back around 2000 when the university I worked at started their search for a candidate for a tenure track photo position, I wrote the search committee about what I saw as a possible future of the photo program at the university. As just a staff person, my input was not appreciated, but I suggested the future would best be served by keeping wet photography alive and well, and not limit digital photography to just being a new method of photography, but to consider digital photography as part (and start) of a larger world of digital art. A quarter century later, I still think along those lines...and with AI, even more so.
In commercial setting - possibly and has already happened. For hobbyists and artists out there - I can't see AI taking over the activities one loves doing as often the activity itself is what drives one forward.
Uncompressed music responds neatly to Volume knobs and buttons tooLoudness helps us old folks.
Yes!
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