Photographing conservative Jews on the Sabath

Thanks for the clarifications, Jeffrey! I think most of my cameras would qualify as "Shabbos cameras" by your definition, and the light meter between my ears is generally at least as good as an old selenium meter.

Jeffrey - thank you for the additional background information. The ruling regarding the timing of the monetary transfers at B&H reminds me of the Japanese cultural belief of it being very rude to touch another person (a stranger, in public). Thus, the pleasant ladies who push people to pack the trains wear gloves.

For B&H, though, doesn't the question still remain for the longer high holidays?

If they were using an automated system (i.e. computer) me guesses that the poeple are not touching the money nor making any transaction. Thus a loophole

rbarker said:

Jeffrey - thank you for the additional background information. The ruling regarding the timing of the monetary transfers at B&H reminds me of the Japanese cultural belief of it being very rude to touch another person (a stranger, in public). Thus, the pleasant ladies who push people to pack the trains wear gloves.

For B&H, though, doesn't the question still remain for the longer high holidays?

Click to expand...

B&H doesn't ship on the holidays, though I suppose money may be transferred electronically (though perhaps not, if they only process the payment when the order is shipped).

Jeffrey A. Steinberg said:

I have been in a lively debate with my rabbi regarding a "shabbos" camera. We now have shabbos lights that are on all through shabbos but have a shade that allows you to cut their output to 0 and thus "turn" it on and off without reallying creating a flame or extinguishing a flame....

.

Click to expand...

I love the notion that "pilpul" (I sure hope I'm using the correct word) still exists in the pursuit of clarifying and refining Jewish law in the context of modern living. Pretty neat.....Hope you prevail!

Jeffrey A. Steinberg said:

There is nothing inherently wrong with making music and in fact some could argue it goes a long way to "celebrating the sabbath." There is no biblical prohabition that I am aware of but I am not as learned as a rabbi who should be consulted in all Jewish Law questions (called Halacha). There is, however, a rabbinic gezera around playing music on the sabbath since if the piano breaks or a guitar breaks, we might fix it and that is work, which is biblically prohibited.

Click to expand...

Hi Jeffrey, as a proud agnostic, I'm so often amazed at the customs and ideals that have been passed down through out the ages. How complicated we make our lives in order to simplify them.

Could not the musician bring two guitars. Could they not be fixed if broken by someone who fixes guitars, for a hobby. As one man's vocations is anothers vacation does not the making of food and delivering a sermon ??, (pardon the ignorance) constituted work. Can one drive a car, because it may need to be fixed, ride an elevator, breath, because we may need a doctor?

I find it all amazing.

As an agnostic, I'm like a drunk, compared to an alcoholic. I don't have to attend all those pesky meetings.

Thanks for your insights.




Michael

blansky said:

Could not the musician bring two guitars. Could they not be fixed if broken by someone who fixes guitars, for a hobby. As one man's vocations is anothers vacation does not the making of food and delivering a sermon ??, (pardon the ignorance) constituted work. Can one drive a car, because it may need to be fixed, ride an elevator, breath, because we may need a doctor?

I find it all amazing.

As an agnostic, I'm like a drunk, compared to an alcoholic. I don't have to attend all those pesky meetings.

Thanks for your insights.


Michael

Click to expand...

I guess two guitars are possible technically but since the rabbis declared the rule to protect the religion, the orthodox have maintained it and have taken it as though its forbidden. Its seems to work (at least to the orthodox).

[digression for readers: There is a great book called "The Jew in the Lotus" about the Dali Lama asking a cross section of american Jews to come to his palace to help him figure out how to manage a religion/people in diaspora since we have done it so well for 2K+ years. Interesting that he would think that way]

Regarding driving on the shabbos to take someone to the hospital--that is allowed. You are allowed to violate any biblical law in the pursuit of saving a life. Its called "Pequah Nefesh" and its a mitzvah (a good dead). We can do anything to save a life. Breath all you want; take an elevator. Do whatever.

We can even extinguish a light for someone who is sick on the shabbos.

rbarker said:

For B&H, though, doesn't the question still remain for the longer high holidays?

Click to expand...

Their website is open 24x7 from what I know. Longer holidays are considered like shabbos except we can cook (excluding Yom Kippur). Thus, as long as they process the orders after the holiday, its the same thing as shabbos.

Jeffrey A. Steinberg said:

Suffice it to say, he [the rabbi] really didn't agree with me. The thurst of his argument was not with the technical aspects of my argument but "is it in the spirit of shabbos?" I have to agree with him since shabbos is a state of mind spiritually where we dedicate ourselves to god, family and study of the torah (bible).

Click to expand...

...which is why, say, the Israeli Defense Forces are allowed to fly F-16 missions on the sabbath, etc. Because it has been determined that defense of the state of Israel is something of a mitzvoh and therefore a worthy activity for the sabbath. Trying to fathom the sabbath rules on mechanistic merits, exclusive of the underlying "spirit of shabbos," is to lose track of the initial idea. It's not the lack of working that's most-crucial, but that one's attentions are focussed appropriately on god, family, and the torah -- however that spirit may best express itself. Within this framework, your rabbi sounds 100% correct to me.

Now, of course, if one is a Lubavitcher (and opposed to the political and secular state of Israel), you can declare the whole business an insidious sham. And the idea that someone else's work (or photography, whether considered as work, as graven image, or simply as intrusion) is something you should mess with on religious grounds... I'm sure someone can rationalise it! There's sure been a fair amount of wishful and convenient stretching of the original charter (as handed down via Moses, Abraham, associated sons and cousins) over the years. Just ask their supposed faithful servants and inheritors Osama B L and George W B

Which sadly is how human usage of religion inevitably always ends up -- rather than aiming vertically between the individual and god, it's always handier and easier to aim it horizontally at the heathen over yonder :/

bjorke said:

Which sadly is how human usage of religion inevitably always ends up -- rather than aiming vertically between the individual and god, it's always handier and easier to aim it horizontally at the heathen over yonder :/

Click to expand...

Sadly, well said!