Photographic Control Spiral

faberryman · Apr 30, 2022

What is this "Photographic Control Spiral" suppose to demonstrate?

Timberwolf · Apr 30, 2022

Process control.

albada · Apr 30, 2022

I'll guess the spiral is trying to say this:

for (int attempt=0; attempt<3; attempt++) {

neg.exposeForShadows();
neg.devForHighlights();
print.exposeForHighlights();
print.contrastForShadows();

}

That means it takes three trips to the field and three attempts in the darkroom to get the photo right.

Timberwolf · Apr 30, 2022

Sorry you don't get it.

Sirius Glass · Apr 30, 2022

More like spinning the wheels in sand or snow. Much better to shoot box speed and add the Zone System when more shadows are needed. I do not have use for going in circles.

Sirius Glass · Apr 30, 2022

Timberwolf said:
You're beginning to get it. You got the first step right (box speed to start). What do you think the next step is?

Use the light meter without the sky in view.

Timberwolf · Apr 30, 2022

Assume you know what the correct exposure is given the film "box speed" and you have made the exposure. What then?

Sirius Glass · Apr 30, 2022

Timberwolf said:
Assume you know what the correct exposure is given the film "box speed" and you have made the exposure. What then?

One thing one could do is film development or throw it in the car glove box to cook for a few years first.

Sirius Glass · Apr 30, 2022

Timberwolf said:
Now we're getting somewhere. Let's say this is the first time we have used this particular film. We used the "box speed" for exposure, so let's use the manufacturers' recommended development time for the developer we are using. After we process the film as recommended, then we can find a print exposure time to get a good highlight. Do you see where I'm headed here?

Do you need to be lead by hand? Just say so.

Sirius Glass · Apr 30, 2022

Timberwolf said:
I'll explain the next step if you would like me to.

It is your thread so why not?

Timberwolf · Apr 30, 2022

Thanks for hanging in here. So, we are still learning about the qualities of our new film. We exposed and processed like the manufacturer said. We made a print to get a good highlight, but let's say that over all the print has too little contrast (or too much). These days we can change the printing filter to improve contrast. May not get a perfect print yet but can improve it. By evaluating our best print so far we can decide whether to increase or decrease how the film is rated for our conditions. And so on around the spiral until we have a perfect print.

Timberwolf · Apr 30, 2022

This way we eventually find out the best speed rating and processing time for the film. No need to test again unless conditions change.

MattKing · Apr 30, 2022

I don't think most of us are connecting your graphic with what you are saying. I appreciate the effort, but the iterative process you reference in the words doesn't seem to match the spiraling graphic.
Perhaps you can explain how the two are connected for you.

Timberwolf · May 1, 2022

Matt
Thank you for introducing me to the concept of "iterative process". A process of "trial and error" is what I am trying to describe in this thread. Photographers get use to this idea...I just didn't know the proper term or even understand the precise definition and probably still don't.
The spiral graphic helps me to visualize the process of refining a system of exposure and development and printing to consistently get a print with which I am satisfied. It is certainly an oversimplification considering all the variables involved. The idea is to control important variables until I have a practical technique to get very close to the end result I am working toward, somewhere near the center of the spiral. The method is nonlinear. (Your Adams reference is apropos.)

mshchem · May 1, 2022

I use an incident light meter, I meter as how the light falls on the subject, I shoot box speed and develop using very ordinary developers following the manufacturer's recommendations.

I print my negatives myself, I either print using a single VC grade or when required split grade

Most of my work is on 120 and some sheet film.

Modern film is amazing.

otto.f · May 1, 2022

mshchem said:
I use an incident light meter, I meter as how the light falls on the subject, I shoot box speed and develop using very ordinary developers following the manufacturer's recommendations.

I print my negatives myself, I either print using a single VC grade or when required split grade

Most of my work is on 120 and some sheet film.

Modern film is amazing.

Yeah, with modern VC papers you have mostly enough room to get deep blacks and not burnt out whites on one film with different light situations.
So, I don’t see that the diagram with the spiral adds much to the story. Once exposed for the shadows, you’re convicted to a short development which leaves you with a faint negative and a lot of ado for the final print to get pop. Incident light metering is the best way to hold your deep blacks. And details in the highlights are often overrated. And I prefer burning in highlights above dodging shadows, because the latter leads to loss of contrast tn the shadows. That’s my taste. Your miles may vary though with very contrasty films under 50 ASA, condensor enlargers, cold light heads or ledlight heads

jnamia · May 1, 2022

Timberwolf said:
This way we eventually find out the best speed rating and processing time for the film. No need to test again unless conditions change.

Hi Timberwolf
I appreciate your process and how it works for you. I think you just touched upon something in this post
unless the conditions change. the conditions --- atmospheric / lighting, processing and printing, even shutter speeds --- are in flux.

Do you have a website so we can see some of your imagery?

grain elevator · May 1, 2022

Tough crowd here! I get the idea from looking at the graphic so I think it could be useful to introduce people to photographic processes without significant contrast control in the positive stage (as has been mentioned, not so much for working with VC paper).

pentaxuser · May 1, 2022

grain elevator said:
Tough crowd here! I get the idea from looking at the graphic so I think it could be useful to introduce people to photographic processes without significant contrast control in the positive stage (as has been mentioned, not so much for working with VC paper).

It would appear that the first reaction of most respondents was to be annoyed at being presented with a simple graphic without any attempt at adding an explanation. It took until Matt's reply to (a) express any gratitude to the OP and to say that his graphic may have failed to explain whatever it was that the OP thought it explained. We needed a further explanation

The simplest initial response might have been to have been to have asked for a fuller explanation but we don't always go for open neutral questions in our responses.

A white haired German guy walks into a saloon and says he has discovered an equation that will change the world. He says the equation is very simple. It's e = mc squared.

The cowboys' reaction is that he's obviously a "wise guy" instead of asking him what he equation means and why he thinks it will change the world

The odds now are that matters will quickly go downhill

pentaxuser

faberryman · May 1, 2022

pentaxuser said:
It would appear that the first reaction of most respondents was to be annoyed at being presented with a simple graphic without any attempt at adding an explanation. It took until Matt's reply to (a) express any gratitude to the OP and to say that his graphic may have failed to explain whatever it was that the OP thought it explained. We needed a further explanation

The simplest initial response might have been to have been to have asked for a fuller explanation but we don't always go for open neutral questions in our responses.

I asked in post #2:

faberryman said:
What is this "Photographic Control Spiral" suppose to demonstrate?

Therein began the process of pulling teeth or, if you prefer, playing twenty questions:

How to Play the game 20 Questions

20 Questions is a great game to play when you have some time to kill. Check out this video and learn the basic rules of the game. 20 Questions is perfect...

party-games.wonderhowto.com

For those interested in the spiral process model, typically used in software development, here is a quick overview:

Spiral model - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

removedacct1 · May 1, 2022

We're spiraling, alright. If this was meant to be a learning experience, it has failed spectacularly.

Timberwolf · May 1, 2022

mshchem said:
I use an incident light meter, I meter as how the light falls on the subject, I shoot box speed and develop using very ordinary developers following the manufacturer's recommendations.

I print my negatives myself, I either print using a single VC grade or when required split grade

Most of my work is on 120 and some sheet film.

Modern film is amazing.

I like simplicity. Your approach works for me as well. When I started mixing my chems from scratch, and modifying formulas, I had to make some adjustments.

Timberwolf · May 1, 2022

faberryman said:
I asked in post #2:

Therein began the process of pulling teeth or, if you prefer, playing twenty questions:

How to Play the game 20 Questions

20 Questions is a great game to play when you have some time to kill. Check out this video and learn the basic rules of the game. 20 Questions is perfect...

party-games.wonderhowto.com

For those interested in the spiral process model, typically used in software development, here is a quick overview:

Spiral model - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Thank you for the contribution. I'm sure glad practical photography is a lot less complicated than software development, at least as far as I can take it.

Timberwolf · May 1, 2022

grain elevator said:
Tough crowd here! I get the idea from looking at the graphic so I think it could be useful to introduce people to photographic processes without significant contrast control in the positive stage (as has been mentioned, not so much for working with VC paper).

You have hit upon an important point: "...photographic processes without significant contrast control in the positive stage." There are some benefits in doing so, not just to make printing less work (even with VC papers) but to improve the final desired print image quality.

Photographic Control Spiral

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