Photographers' salaries

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Craig

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What schools could eventually teach good students, these men intuitively felt. They could dissasemble broken unfamiliar equipment, analyze it to determine its function, determine its problem, adjust or perhaps improvise or fabricate broken parts, reassemble it, and check out its performance.

Those qualities are very valuable to have in an engineer, and unfortunately many don't have it. You're right, mechanical aptitude is generally something you either have or don't have.

However, much of the physical world is not intuitive and needs to be learned. You've described the role of a mechanic, but what about the guy who designed the machinery in the first place? It required knowledge of things like material properties, tribology, thermodynamics and heat transfer.

I design industrial machinery, and I frequently get asked about how big a pipe can pass through an I beam that supports the machinery. It takes about 4 pages of calculations to be able to answer that question because you need to know the load on the beam, how its supported, what is the shape of the beam, where the load is, how big is the hole, where in the beam is the hole (is it on centre, near the top etc). Much of of the results are counter intuitive, and the shop guys ( who are very skilled journeymen) are always really skeptical because it "doesn't seem right". So far it's always worked!
 

Andy K

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but what about the guy who designed the machinery in the first place? It required knowledge of things like material properties, tribology, thermodynamics and heat transfer.

James Watt was home schooled by his mother.
 

Craig

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James Watt was home schooled by his mother.

Lots of pressure equipment blew up in those days too. We try and avoid that now. It was precicely those risks to public safety that resulted in the first legislation governing Engineering and pressure vessels.
 

Andy K

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Ah, the health and safety culture. If that had been around back then the industrial revolution would never happened.
 

Sandeha Lynch

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"Ah, the health and safety culture. If that had been around back then the industrial revolution would never happened."

Too true. And that's partly why I disagree that specialists (engineers, musicians, etc) might be born rather than made. It's NURTURE, on top of nature, plus practice, practice, practice. (Experiment, experiment, experiment.)
 

pentaxuser

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£10,000 a year is not 'starvation salary'. Get some perspective FFS!

1.This is paid at local Govt rates. The fact it is a photographer's postion is irrelevant. There may be a lot wrong with Local Govt pay and conditions but discrimination against photogs because its a great job per se is not one of them.
2. I couldn't ascertain what a full time postion is in terms of hours but assuming it is 37.5 hrs or possibly even 35 then the rate is about £9.70 to £10.40 respectively. The supply of grads or diplomas these days is much greater than in those days when being a grad was a passport to riches.
3. The position is based in the North Midlands bordering S Yorkshire where salaries are much less than London and the South East. We live in a country where conditions in London and a 35 mile radius around it bear little relationship to the rest of the country. The gap grows wider every year.
4. The car allowance is generous. If you owe a car anyway as most young people do then even if its a new car the total depreciation cost is less than 45p per mile. If it's 2/3 yrs old then 45p per mile allows you a reasonable profit.

5. The rate is aimed at a newly qualified grad/ diploma person. Other than the Financial Services or certain blue chip companies who have the pick of the best grads the starting rate quoted is admittedly in the bottom half of grad salaries but not rock bottom given the other factors above.

Andy's absolutely right in his comments and maybe then some. That reality today.

pentaxuser
 

DKT

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I agree--it's in a gov't structure & pay scale. It occured to me earlier, that if it were closer to full time, the pay would be less, actually, because the position would qualify for benefits. So, I'm not so keen to drag the employers over the coals. I would stack it up to the other positions, to their budget even and see what positons they even have in the first place. It could very well be, that they're paying this salary because it's all they can afford, or it's all they can afford & they want to pay a decent wage even though they can't afford a full time job with benefits. I've been there/done that. That's all I can say really. It makes me wonder what those of you who don't actually work as photographers, yet consider yourselves photographers, think "photographers" should be making?
 
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David H. Bebbington
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... It makes me wonder what those of you who don't actually work as photographers, yet consider yourselves photographers, think "photographers" should be making?

If you mean me (among others), I am a trained professional photographer who worked as such for seven years (1969 to 1976) before moving into industrial journalism and translation, the field in which I am still working today. I regard myself as equally qualified in both fields (while recognising that the 32 years professional practise as a writer versus 7 as a photographer do make a difference).

As a writer, I find that making a turnover (not profit) of around £50,000 a year allows me to work the way I want in terms of the quantity of work I need to accept and the quality I am able to deliver, and also means I can afford equipment of the kind I like to use (essentially 2 high-end laptop computers, scanners, back-up storage and other peripherals, plus some cameras). I drive a 7-year-old executive sedan (bought secondhand). For some time I have followed the concept of "1,000 billable hours a year" which the business gurus quote for creative people as a formula to prevent burnout (remember, I've been working full-time continuously for 41 years, no end in sight as yet).

I have from time to time thought about doing some commercial photography again, because of the greatly increased need for equipment plus a large vehicle (new 4WD) and smart clothing instead of the jeans and T-shirt I wear now, I would need to rack my turnover target up to £65,000 for myself working alone. As I find it burdensome to move 2 camera outfits, a complete lighting rig, tripods, etc. around on my own at my advanced age (60), I would consider the employment of an assistant to be essential, which would put my turnover target up to £100,000 a year (working on the usual formula of total costs of an employee being twice the wage costs). This would dictate a day rate of at least £1,000, assuming two billable days a week (on the basis of one day doing admin for every billable day). All these figures are so far removed from present-day reality that I stick to my desk and take pictures only for fun.

Other posters have made a number of perceptive remarks, with which I broadly agree. The "lucky" appointee to the Peak District job will assuredly not starve, because he/she will be living with parents who will subsidise living expenses and help with car costs - the photographer in question will no doubt be young and keen, will considerably over-deliver for the salary paid and will go on to bigger and better things. None of which makes me think any the less that the terms and conditions offered by this employer represent extremely cynical exploitation. As to the professional status of photographers - as others have said, it doesn't exist!

Regards,

David
 

DKT

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david--I consider myself a professional photographer, not only because I have a degree in photography, and belong to a professional organization for photographers--but mostly because I have earned 100% of my income in the role as a photographer for close to twenty years. Granted these 20 yrs, have been either working for photographers & studios in the conditions such as you have described for your operation--or the bulk of the past 16 have been working for a gov't agency that employs about 6 photographers and several lab techs. Beyond all that--I consider myself a professional because I try to deliver a professional product--whatever that may be--in the course of my job. I'm saying I take pride in the work that I produce, whether it's shooting furniture in a studio, covering an event, working in the lab, or even the daily grind of file management or sitting at a computer scanning.

I have never considered myself to be in an entry level position, nor have I considered it to be something which has kept be back in any way--as I have posted before, I consider the benefits to be a big factor--I don't know many self employed people in any field who will have a pension, who are vested into a retirement system, who get longevity bonuses, let alone their medical insurance, or who get paid days off & paid sick leave.

My salary is above the average for the US in the jobs census for commercial photographers (it's not a secret, someone could find out, but I don't want to be tacky and say what it is). This puts it well below what an established studio photographer would make, or would have at one time. On the other hand, I own a house--live within walking distance of where I work, own my car, have my own hobbies--sailing, cameras, my own darkroom. I'm happily married for over ten years--basically I couldn't imagine doing anything else and consider the job I have now as enabling me to pursue this as a path in life.

So--that's where I'm coming from. I have met some photographers who balked at the salary figures of the pay grade I'm in. I have met others who applied for those same photographer jobs when they were open, after having turned down their noses to them in earlier times--one wanted the insurance, another closed a studio and was trying to find work. As some others have pointed out--it depends on where you live, how you live. I don't want to live in a metropolitan area like NYC. I don't want a SUV or a house bigger than what I need. I live small--like it that way. I consider myself "lucky" in that sense--maybe not lucky to some, but works for me.

my opinions only/not my employers.
 

catem

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The 2008 full-time starting salary for a registered nurse (i.e. fully qualified) is currently £19,683 - for a secondary school teacher without London allowance £20,627. In this context, the salary quoted doesn't seem bad. A lot less stress by the sound of it ....
 

jeroldharter

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... For some time I have followed the concept of "1,000 billable hours a year" which the business gurus quote for creative people as a formula to prevent burnout (remember, I've been working full-time continuously for 41 years, no end in sight as yet)...

David

Wow,

I did some quick arithmetic and you are doing quite well by American standards. You are generating about $100,000 of "turnover." I would generate the 1000 billable hours in 19 weeks at the pace of work here (that would leave me with only 33 weeks of vacation per year but I could live with it).

By my arithmetic, you are working the equivalent of 5 hours per work day with 3 months off per year. After 41 years you deserve earned it, so good for you.
 

JBrunner

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I can't speak for David of course, but 1000 billable hours in my year would generate at least that many "un-billable" hours. Also, I must pay all of my own medical/dental insurance, and I am taxed at a higher rate than an "employed" person.

Not a complaint, just a reality check for those who seem to think freelance rates are excessive.
 

copake_ham

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I think David is beginning to understand that he has reached the top after a 41-year journey.

Not everyone is that far along in their journey and the half-time pay for a beginner that was shown in the OP isn't so bad after all.

You need to be able to understand that life is a continuum - not a lock step march.
 
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David H. Bebbington
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Jerold and Jason -
Yes, total billable hours are not total hours worked - as I indicated, and Jason confirms, each billable hour tends to be matched by a non-billable hour. On that basis, Jerold would be working 1,000 hours divided by 19 equals 52 hours a week, times 2 equals 104. I sincerely hope this is not true, if it is, Jerold should consult himself and ask for advice on a healthier lifestyle!

As regards DKT's remarks - I hear what he is saying, America would seem to present more opportunities than Britain for moving to a rural location and living quite well for relatively little cash. This thread has provided some examples of costs in Britain - we can only dream of finding a livable house for $30,000, US prices for cars and gas are also way below the UK levels. I entirely subscribe to the idea of a sensible work/life balance and am really not a materialistic person - on the other hand, I know that I would not get respect from clients if I turned up to do a photographic assignment with my 50-year-old Sinar or Leicas or my 30-year-old Nikons (notwithstanding that I find them totally perfect for my personal work). And I'd have to buy a high-end digital back for £15,000 or more! It really is not a question of earning a certain number of dollars or pounds but rather of what lifestyle these make possible - I think all posters would agree on that!

Regards,

David
 

Photo Engineer

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In the US, the average person works 2000 hours / year based on a 5 day 52 week schedule + holidays. We used to use 2000 as 'billable' hours for employees.

Just a side note.

PE
 

DKT

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I don't think freelance rates are high, I understand why--it's the overhead and the benefits--you pay for your security out of pocket. It has to come from somewhere. It's why I'm a staffer--I only ask that the courtesy be extended. Instead of assuming that someone who takes one of these jobs, is being "exploited", maybe think of them as someone making a living, and enjoying their job. There are lots of public employees out there, doing jobs people wouldn't even consider, or maybe just doing jobs, gettin' by and even enjoying them. Hell, I don't know--I like mine, I'm not making $100K a year by Jerold's calculations. Freelance--good luck! I'd be enslaved every minute of the day--by the time my insurance was paid, my IRA was funded and everything else under the sun was paid, I wouldn't have close to that--and would have to work for the rest of my life probably. The concept of retiring with a full pension by the time I'm 50, has seemed attractive to me for some unknown reason--probably because I've been exploited as a worker. How quaint.
 

jeroldharter

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Jerold and Jason -
Yes, total billable hours are not total hours worked - as I indicated, and Jason confirms, each billable hour tends to be matched by a non-billable hour. On that basis, Jerold would be working 1,000 hours divided by 19 equals 52 hours a week, times 2 equals 104. I sincerely hope this is not true, if it is, Jerold should consult himself and ask for advice on a healthier lifestyle!


David

David,

I understand your point and agree that I should have my head examined. However, time is not the only variable in compensation. Other costs are also. For me to work a "billable hour" requires a staff of others to work billable time too. If I were to do everything myself, I would have to work more than 100 weeks per year. Your point is well taken that at work there is a point of diminishing returns, especially with a regressive tax situation. At some point, it does not pay to work.
 

JBrunner

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Just a note- most of the "livable" $30,000 dollar houses to be found in the US are located in areas of comparable wage. Usually rural communities with an agricultural emphasis, ie, a small town in a farm belt, or a shut down mining town, or some such. In the Salt Lake area, which is sort of cosmopolitan, but hardly a "real" big city, a house in a decent area runs from $200,000 (not to many of those) on up to 3 or $400,000.
 

DKT

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Again, there's the assumption that because I work in such a job, that I live in a rural area. I work at the state capitol-- the gov't complex. I actually have an assigned parking space--I get that for $10.00 a month, deducted from my paycheck. This is in an area with almost no public parking, and local decks charging upwards of 100 a month. This is one perk I'm expecting to eventually lose as parking is such an issue. As I said, I could walk to work...the walk home would probably longer, as I would feel inexplicably drawn to--ahem--perhaps a bar or two along the way, but nonetheless I could walk, or ride the bus.

Now, again--I'm lucky somewhat. I used to live in another county actually--not a rural one, but one of those liberal college towns...my commute was about 90 miles round, and took me down a congested interstate. My cars at the time were my faithful 1977 toyota corona with the busted odometer stuck at 200K, and a 10 yr old mazda pickup. I liked the college town, as I lived near a lake that I sailed on--and would often work a half day during the week and go sailing when few were out. I didn't like the commute.

Since I don't feel like I need a huge home, and I never actually had ammenities like dishwashers that some people see as an absolute neccesity- I was able to look at small, older houses and see them as something I could live in--not as something that needs to be torn down, as is now happening in the neighborhood I eventually moved to. Where someone absolutely cannot bring themselves to live in a 800-1500 sq ft house--instead they have to tear it down and build a 5000 sq ft box in it's place, with no room left on the lot. Now, no, I probably couldn't afford to buy a house as the property values have skyrocketed. Otoh--I wouldn't be buying a huge one anyways, or buying something more than I could afford or being strapped to debt. So it's a bit of a moot point anyways.

Which brings me to my last comment--David keeps referencing the "needs". I do some freelance work as well, when it comes my way & when I feel like it. I turn 99% of it down, because I want to make money when I do it--and for reasons I suspect are very similar to the ones voiced by the freelancers here--as I said I consider myself a pro, and like to be paid a fair wage. I have billed out at $1000-2500 a day, used all my own gear, and used no assistants--even when I had to rent spaces to shoot. Sometimes I am able to work out of my domke bag, other times I have to haul all my stuff using my pickup and it's a long day, that's a lot of work.

My cameras aren't the latest & greatest. I did a job once using a Graphic View II and shot the product on my driveway at night so I could do multiple pops with the strobes. My neighbors must have thought I was insane--my client never knew the difference and this is on a product that can be purchased to this day in any large bookstore. I see it in the bins all the time. I could have done a shot like that at work, in about an hour--it took me about four times that at home, because I had to rig a set out in my driveway at night.

If I had to work freelance now--as in today--I would probably opt out for a D3, since I use a D2x at work and am pretty familiar with them. I own a D70 though--bought it new when they came out. Again--I have shot jobs with it. I don't feel like the pauper if whoever hired me sees me with it. I shot professionally for years with N90s, and never felt that way either. I think it's a trap really--to see your equipment as the thing representing you. I know many pros think they have a clientele that expects no less than the best, whatever that may be--but guess what? I don't feel that need...

so as to this salary? what I find slightly offensive is the idea that whoever takes this sort of a job must be a young person, just out of school, living at home. Well--it's very close to my position to be honest. I have worked with an old timer who was in a position like mine--same grade even--for 30 yrs. So long, he actually maxed out the salary in the grade. He was in the PPA--considered himself a pro, worked his time and retired. This notion that these are "entry level" gateway positions are again--just an assumption on your part. In my experience, they're not. One reason why they're not posted often, isn't because they don't exist. It's that the turnover is so low.

so off to work for myself--my opinions only, even from home.
 
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BobNewYork

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DKT - you're absolutely right! I was once told years ago that "with no expectations there can be no disappointments." It took me many years to realize that this applies to everything in life - jobs, relationships etc. The personal choices one makes for ones lifestyle SHOULD be about contentment but is more often about the ability to acquire 'stuff'. Hence raised expectations = raised disappointments. I think that much of the thread has been noting the trend to undervalue creative professionals in the marketplace. Jason, for example has noted how his income has declined because of this. I do believe that in recent years the "ascendancy of the shareholder" has led to "good enough" being considered "good" -because it adds to the bottom line.

One of my clients for many years has been a Fortune 500. I did a lot of work for them - advertising, product / catalogue, location documentary etc. About a year ago I noted a decline in business and it turned out that to meet budget requirements the marketing and communications guy had the company buy a camera and a couple of lenses - they added photography to his job description. I get two types of call from them nowadays - to do a shoot that he can't get right; or for recommendations as to which flash, lens or software he should buy!

At the end of the day - so be it. As long as we value our own work that in itself is a form of contentment.
 

DKT

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bob--I've had to deal with the same frustrations, and my wife is actually self-employed (12+ yrs) in another creative field, so I can sympathize with what you all are experiencing in terms of downturn and dealing with clients. I don't see things as ever going back to be honest. I would say that the market isn't going down--it has collapsed. Again--I don't live in some backwater. This state had the largest still photo studio in the world at one time, and there was a whole slew of smaller studios and literally the whole economy of a couple of towns relied on the catalog shooting market. Now, a lot of that is being moved to overseas and remote proofing is replacing the old ways--which for years was shooting 8x10 and larger, in-house labs producing contact prints that were actually bound into the catalogs themselves. there were all sorts of other photofinishing and retouching trades in terms of jobs. Set designers and fabricators, lab techs, assistants, staff photographers etc--all of that is winding down, as are so many of the other parts of the business.

There are only maybe 2 or 3 labs left in the entire state that still run E6, which is depressing to say the least. I'm shooting furniture to this day, still on sheet film, using a view camera--and it looks like soon I will either have to figure out a way to justify a scanning back and the HMI lights etc, or face reality and use the D2 or get a D3. The scanning backs are cheaper, and can be used on the view cameras, but have some serious drawbacks in terms of lighting options. The capture backs have no end of problems in terms of compatibility when it comes to the 4x5 toyos we use and the mamiya 645 as well. Not to mention the hardware upgrades to process the larger file sizes and storage.

The reality is that in what we do most--which is work for publication in magazines and books, textbooks etc, the detail of a 4x5 is often lost--the D2 can do this sort of work. The resolution is not as good as a 4x5 chrome--you can see it in the furniture, fabric, finer parts--BUT--it's not needed, because it is lost in the repro at the sizes it is used. The really bad part is that you lose the movements of the view camera. It's like a loss in craft to be honest--I have been trying to work around it for several years and as time goes by, it becomes easier for me to see the good things about moving in this direction, but it doesn't mean that it has been an easy process. In the end, that's really all you can do I think....I know from talking with some other photographers--some of them just chose not to continue work, and tried to find another thing to do. As Jason said earlier--I don't have another skill set. I may not be in the big leagues, but it is what I do for a living.

my opinions only/not my employers
 

DKT

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hey john--thanks, but I wish it weren't so! My earlier post was all zen-like...made it sound like I had my act together, instead of the soul searching process of trying to stay employed....
 

BobNewYork

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Yup: There's no question in my mind that pride of workmanship has lost its value - simply because shareholder returns are more important. Of course we've seen the results of maximizing shareholder returns this past couple of weeks. Many years ago my father used to tell me "Good enough usually isn't!" Not so sure thats true any more. And yet some day everyone will be wondering where all the craftsmanship went! I met a young guy about a year ago who told me he was going to be a professional photographer. He had no experience to that point but was being given a two week program before being sent out to do school photography! It's no wonder the local photographers can't get a look in in their local school districts any more.

Even much of the fine art photography has been debased in my mind in favour of "shock value" over craftsmanship. I bumped into a fairly well known B&W fine art photographer here on Long Island recently. He'd been on his rounds of the NYC galleries and as he put it: "Unless it's been pissed on or crapped on, they don't have any interest!" Sad indictment from an extremely talented individual.

All I can say is "Wait 'til the revolution. They'll be first against the wall"!!!!
 

DanielOB

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It is 19,000 Br. Pounds / year (part time) as add says.
It is 38,000 Br. Pounds / year for full time (40 h / week)

Maaaaan it is approx. $us 76,000 / year full time. It is sallary for Top-Notch Engineer in the best paid companies in Canada. Many real artist painters live on $20,000 / year at good time.
Get a grip man.
 
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