Photographer's rights in Britain

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tim_walls

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Steve - it's from the Home Office, on their letterhead, to my MP. (The way it works is your MP is obliged to respond to a constituent, and a minister is obliged to respond to an MP - so you need your MP to write on your behalf if you want a good chance of a reply.)

I'm posting from my mobile phone at the mo, but as soon as I get home I'll scan and upload as an attachment.
 

pentaxuser

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Well there are 170+ signed up now but my MP is sadly lacking. All I got was the standard 'we have received your enquiry' type of letter.

Tim - is your second letter also from your MP or is it actually from the Home Office? A Home Office letter would carry a lot more weight with police or security than an MP's letter.


Steve.

Steve I got a follow up from the website, given by Peter Black I think under "Write to Them" asking whether I had got a reply from my MP. They are keen to distinguish between a proper reply and a simple acknowledgement which they regard rightly as inadequate. They are keen to publicise and congratulate those MPs who do respond properly and those who don't. An acknowledgement falls into the latter category. They ask that you tell them which "response" you had and MPs get it listed against them as I understand it.

You should get a " Did your MP respond?" e-mail and you can then complete the very short questionnaire. Might not change things but as a certain supermarket says: "Every little helps"

pentaxuser
 

tim_walls

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As promised, attached is the Home Office letter - redacted to remove my name/address, but otherwise unchanged. I suggest a highlighter pen to the second paragraph if needed, though ;-).



(Incidentally, for anyone who may be wondering - "West of Spithead" is not an instruction on where to stick the letter; that's Baron West of Spithead's signature - he is the Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Security & Counter-terrorism in the Home Office.)
 

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pentaxuser

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Ah Baron West of Spithead! These sorts of titles always cause our U.S. cousins to go into creases of laughter and even sound comical to me - a Brit. It reminds me of the Beverley Hillbillys series where they inherit/ own an estate in Kent and dress in a medieval garb to get into the spirit of things.

The whole thing is brought into sharp relief because I inspected my property deeds today and the measurements were in roods, poles and perches. The legal language was something more familiar to Will Shakespeare than a 21st century citizen of this sceptred isle. Is Good King Hal now dead or can I join him at Agincourt?

pentaxuser
 

MattKing

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As promised, attached is the Home Office letter - redacted to remove my name/address, but otherwise unchanged. I suggest a highlighter pen to the second paragraph if needed, though ;-).



(Incidentally, for anyone who may be wondering - "West of Spithead" is not an instruction on where to stick the letter; that's Baron West of Spithead's signature - he is the Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Security & Counter-terrorism in the Home Office.)

I've been following this thread with interest, although obviously a foreigner's perspective. :smile:

I must say I am impressed with the "Motto" at the bottom of the "Home Office" stationery. "Building a safe, just and tolerant society" seems much more principled than what we normally see from government and the bureaucracy.

Matt
 

snallan

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Cheers Tim, thanks for posting the scan of the letter.
 

tim_walls

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You know, it's just occurred to me that given the current (rightful) furore about our glorious police state overstepping the mark in arresting an MP for doing his job, those of you who received replies from letters to your MP saying the following...

I wrote to my MP to draw his attention to the EDM. He replied very promptly and here's what he said:
Thank you for your email about EDM 1155 and photography in public places.

I appreciate you drawing my attention to this issue, I am not aware that this practice is particularly prevalent, and as such I would not wish to sign the EDM and criticise our police force without knowing more details.

...might want to write back to your MP reminding them that perhaps our police are not beyond reproach, are in fact developing something of a habit for overreaching their authority and interfering with people's lawful business on specious or invented charges, and perhaps said MP may wish to reconsider his/her position.​
 

Bob F.

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Lol! Good point. MP's being hoist by their own petard is always nice to see...

Actually, I'm all in favour of MPs being arrested (of any party). Since when were they above the law? If they break the law then they get arrested and suffer the consequences the same as the rest of us. Sounds to me like this arrest shows the health of our legal systems. It only becomes a problem if there was some political interference and there is not the faintest whiff of that.
 

arigram

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From the news:

Around two hundred, mostly professional, photographers gather at the headquarters of the Metropolitain Police, New Scotland Yard, in Central London, on 16 February 2009. They joined together to protest against new proposed legislation that makes it an offence to photograph police officers or military personnel if the picture could be used for a purpose linked to terrorism.
They are angry at the introduction of Section 76 of the Counter Terrorism Act and argue it can be used by police to stop and search them in any situation. Anyone convicted under Section 76 could face a fine or a maximum of 10 years' imprisonment. The demonstration has been organised by the National Union of Journalists.
 

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Paul.

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From the news:

Apparently it is now passed and law. methinks we is now buggerd.

When I first read Orwells 1984 I though it fantasy, then Maggi came and I wonderd, now with new labour I weep, we have sleepwalked into a situation where it will be very difficult to go back to sanity.

Regards Paul.
 

Steve Smith

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This is not a law preventing the taking a photograph of a police officer it's a law preventing the taking a photograph of a police officer which is likely to be of use to a person planning an act of terrorism. Just taking a photograph of a police officer without the terrorist intent is still legal - as it should be.

I can't see this law ever being tried in court for these reasons:

1. If there is sufficient evidence of terrorist intent then there is evidence for convictions for much more serious 'crimes' than photography so they will not bother with the 'crime' of photography.

2. If there is no evidence of terrorist intent then they don't have a case. If a photographer gets wrongfully arrested under this law he will eventually be released with an apology - as has been the case in most recent similar situations.

3. This one is highly unlikely but if they decide to persue a case in court over an amateur (or press) photographer taking such a picture, that picture will be court evidence and the prosecution will have to show how that picture will be of assistance to a terrorist.

I can see that this law when misused could be a major hassle when incorrectly quoted by police officers and PCSOs, as has the current terrorism act and proper training of officers is needed to ensure innocent photographers are not caught up in it.
This law will never see a non-terrorist photographer imprisoned. It has potential for imprisoning a photographer with a terrorist intent but that intent is already illegal anyway so it is a pointless addition to the law.


Steve.
 
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This is a good and much needed motion. I have asked my MP for his support.

P.S. As I understand, there is no law against the taking of pictures in any public place, i.e. if it's being done by someone in the street or in public it can be photographed, drawn or painted whatever it is. However, it is not necessarily so if the the subject is on private land and the photographer is on the street. The complex copyright laws then come to bear. The problem, in the main, seems to be over zealous officials.
 
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TobiasK

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This is not a law preventing the taking a photograph of a police officer it's a law preventing the taking a photograph of a police officer which is likely to be of use to a person planning an act of terrorism. Just taking a photograph of a police officer without the terrorist intent is still legal - as it should be.

I can't see this law ever being tried in court for these reasons:

1. If there is sufficient evidence of terrorist intent then there is evidence for convictions for much more serious 'crimes' than photography so they will not bother with the 'crime' of photography.

2. If there is no evidence of terrorist intent then they don't have a case. If a photographer gets wrongfully arrested under this law he will eventually be released with an apology - as has been the case in most recent similar situations.

3. This one is highly unlikely but if they decide to persue a case in court over an amateur (or press) photographer taking such a picture, that picture will be court evidence and the prosecution will have to show how that picture will be of assistance to a terrorist.

I can see that this law when misused could be a major hassle when incorrectly quoted by police officers and PCSOs, as has the current terrorism act and proper training of officers is needed to ensure innocent photographers are not caught up in it.
This law will never see a non-terrorist photographer imprisoned. It has potential for imprisoning a photographer with a terrorist intent but that intent is already illegal anyway so it is a pointless addition to the law.


Steve.

The problem with laws like this is they can be used against photographers on a deadline to prevent or delay them filing pictures, and as a consequence depriving them of a livelihood. Most press photographers know that their case is not going to court, but if the police can detain you for a few hours you can kiss goodbye to that day's pay if you are a freelancer. It's not so much that the police are going to imprison you, it's that you could be put out of the freelance business. It gives the police the power to censor photographers they find 'difficult'.
 

Steve Smith

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Which is exactly my point. Rather than get wound up about the law which, if applied properly, does little to affect our in public photography, we should be concentrating on the mis-use of it and other laws by ill informed or ignorant officers which could hold us up for hours/days before it is realised/admitted that a mistake has been made.


Steve.
 

Tom Stanworth

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Exactly Steve. It has always been a problem when laws are misunderstood or poorly applied; however, some laws are more likely to be abused by over zealous police than others. The problem is that this is so hard to prevent. It can become an ego issue, where the policeman decides to take action because you have somehow challenged his or her authority or told them what he can or cannot do (and perhaps educated him/her). I have been told by a policemen point blank (twice; once officially and the second time over dinner) that they don't like being told they have no right to do XYZ, even when the person telling them is supported by the law. One of the policemen told me point blank that he completely ignored diplomatic immunity while a traffic policeman because of the reasons mentioned, explaining that his boss would always back them up. In his case it very very clearly a male ego issue.

While I agree that many contentious laws, if applied properly, are not a direct breach to our liberty, the problem seems to be that they are frequently not, for a myriad of reasons. I do not believe laws should provide such carte blanche, because you can bet the discretion will not be in your favour when it comes to the crunch.
 

Steve Smith

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Thanks Tom. You used the words I couldn't remember: 'over zealous'.

That's exactly the problem but it was a problem before this modification of the act and will probably continue too.

I don't think the media attention it has received has helped much either as probably half the population now think there is a blanket ban on photographing police officers. Which there obviously isn't.



Steve.
 

Steve Smith

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P.S. As I understand, there is no law against the taking of pictures in any public place, i.e. if it's being done by someone in the street or in public it can be photographed, drawn or painted whatever it is. However, it is not necessarily so if the the subject is on private land and the photographer is on the street. The complex copyright laws then come to bear. The problem, in the main, seems to be over zealous officials.

The law states that you can take a photograph of anything from a public position. That includes someone on their own property who can be viewed from a public place*.

There is a difference between taking the photograph and publishing it. If you were to take a photograph of someone on their property but from a public place you can display it at an exhibition but if it were used as advertising you may have a problem, especially if it mis-represents the person.

The copyright of any photograph you take belongs to you (unless there is an agreement to the contrary in place) even if you had placed yourself illegally (e.g. trespassing) to get the photograph.

* There are other anti-nuisance laws which can be used to deal with someone hiding in a tree with an extra long lens aimed into someone's bedroom, but (hopefully) this is out of the scope of this discussion.



Steve.
 

BobNewYork

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Frankly, before it all goes "tubular" someone, somewhere had better define what "terrorism" means in law. It seems that the definition of "terrorism" or "potential use in the commission of terrorist acts" has become the purview of individual police officers. I find it offensive that there is even a need for this thread to exist! What "freedoms" are we protecting when every photographer I know, personally or through forums like this, has the fear of arrest or harassment in the back of his/her mind every time we use a camera in a public setting?

We seem to have the tail wagging the dog - particularly here in the U.S. and back home in the U.K. Isn't democracy something where the people decide? Maybe I got it all wrong. I could have sworn that 1984 was a novel - not a textbook.

I'm just getting so sick and tired of the trampling of everything we, as nations, stood for, (and purport to stand for still) because it's for my own protection! BTW as anyone checked out the world's highest incarceration rates lately? In the world - USA. In Europe - The U.K. Strange that in bastions of freedom these two populations are inherently the least law-abiding! Does no-one stop to wonder - if so many in the U.K. and U.S. populations require incarceration - whether it inherently bad people, or, perhaps, inherently bad laws and enforcement. Can only be one or the other. And to those MPs who do not wish to be seen criticizing the police - THAT'S YOUR JOB! And, in refusing to criticize the police you are, by definition, criticizing the public for its awful behavior.

Sorry guys.........you just got me started................:mad::mad::mad:
 

arigram

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I just have one question: what is the purpose of laws such as this one?
 

MikeSeb

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@Bob, now you're gonna get me started too!!

What we have in the US is not a democracy (direct rule by the people, Athenian-forum-pottery-shard style), but a republic; which means we rely upon the clowns we habitually send to legislatures to represent our interests. Therein lies the problem.

[Probably the biggest reason for the very high US incarceration rates is our idiotic, failed "War on Drugs". No less a conservative than William F. Buckley (R.I.P.)---who might have been expected to do just the opposite---supported the decriminalization/legalization of drugs because, more than the drugs themselves, he feared the police state the W.O.D. would justify for its prosecution. Some parallels there with the War on Terror, which at least has a real enemy to combat. But that's a digression....]

Politicians of all stripes seek to increase their power and influence, and longevity in office. In the US and elsewhere, that means buying influence and votes by distributing other people's money to favored groups. Politicians, like humans everywhere, respond to incentives to act in their own best interest, and we have thus incentivized them. Point is, don't expect politicians to do the right thing, when the expedient thing is close at hand and entails offending relatively few affected individuals. What is certain is that another major terrorist attack, at least in the US, will bring severe political consequences for whomever is in office at the time; whereas hassling a few photographers has little downside, and on the miniscule chance that someone thus hassled turns out to be covered in plutonium dust, the cops and everyone up the line are heroes, and the pols will be first in line at the press conference to grab the laurels.

In defense of law enforcement, it's not always the cop on the beat at fault. Leadership of metro police departments is frequently poor, evidently; chiefs are chosen for political reasons rather than for law-enforcement professionalism. The beat cops don't always have the guidance they should about what to do. It is maddening, though, that after several highly publicized incidents, the word still hasn't filtered down.

I've been accosted by police on a few occasions; my experience has been that a polite answer to their queries, maybe an explanation of what I'm up to with those strange cameras that don't look like the usual tourist digicams, has resolved the situation. It's more frequently occurred that I've been bothered by some obnoxious rent-a-cop security type trying to prevent my photographing something in plain view from public property. I am large, and therefore more intimidating than my actual toughness would warrant :smile:, so no physical confrontations have occurred. I have had to school more than one such Barney wannabe on privacy-rights expectations in public, and remind him that he can be charged with assault and/or theft by trying for my film.

Even more aggravating are those individuals who don't think they should be photographed out in public. I photographed some skateboarders once at our local extreme skate park; one had fallen and was injured--broken wrist, not life threatening--and paramedics were on scene when I arrived. I photographed those proceedings from a distance, impeding no one's aiding the kid, and was obnoxiously dressed down by some woman in his entourage. My polite responses to her failed to get rid of her, so I eventually had to answer in kind, demeaning myself but making her go away.

So it goes....There's a point somewhere in the preceding; anyone finding it, please report to the Principal's office! :smile:
 

MikeSeb

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I just have one question: what is the purpose of laws such as this one?

To insulate politicians---in case of another major terrorist attack---from accusations that they failed to "do everything possible" to prevent it.

With politicians everywhere, to appear to "do something" is far more important than to do something that actually works, or makes sense. (q.v. $800B "stimulus" law in the US.)
 

BobNewYork

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Amen Michael! Wait 'til the revolution!! It's looking increasingly like my father, (long since deceased) had it right when he used to tell me as a teenager: "It's all a question of mind over matter...........they don't mind. And YOU don't matter." :D

Maybe Dad was right......don't you just HATE that!!
 
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