Photographers of color

[Dali]

The point being that minority as a byword for oppressed ethnic minority is very misleading. Marxists would probably say term minority should be for the elite ruling class and that the real struggle should have been a class struggle not a struggle based on race. Not that i am a marxist but oppressed minority has to predecate some sort of white hive mind majority when we have actually seen through 50s marxist witch hunts, censorship of comics, cia manipulation of art markets etc etc a far more systematic control of voices regardless of ethnicity.

(not that UK is any better - the most censorous monitored state in the "free world" with what was tantamount to a state controlled news akin to pravda for decades and decades)

You are right. Remember Warren Buffet famous quote: " There’s class warfare, all right, but it’s my class, the rich class, that’s making war, and we’re winning.". So, the class struggle being lost, left wing (the self-proclaimed progressists) wants to create a race / sex / gender (you name it) war as this is the only way for them to be somewhat visible. And as I can see, some are prone to swallow the hook, line and sinker.

 

[Cholentpot]

You are right. Remember Warren Buffet famous quote: " There’s class warfare, all right, but it’s my class, the rich class, that’s making war, and we’re winning.". So, the class struggle being lost, left wing (the self-proclaimed progressists) wants to create a race / sex / gender (you name it) war as this is the only way for them to be somewhat visible. And as I can see, some are prone to swallow the hook, line and sinker.

There no class in America (nyuk nyuk). We have a monetary based system but there is no caste or class system in America. We're all commoners, no Lords 'n Ladies 'n 'nobs.

British Royals who moved here are very confused by this.

 

[warden]

Fox News!
Oh yeah? CNN!
No you sheep, Fox News!
CNN!
etc etc

I actually come here to avoid this. I'll just duck out the side door. Peace.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Fox News!
Oh yeah? CNN!
No you sheep, Fox News!
CNN!
etc etc

I actually come here to avoid this. I'll just duck out the side door. Peace.

Even better MSNBC, not FauxNuz. Faux Nuz is for people who cannot deal with reality and things as they actually are.

 

[MartinCrabtree]

Oh, I can answer one of them.

The USA has this awesome rule about news and reporting like things yeah? Something about the people that we put in charge can't own it or something. Like there's no BBC in the Americans country. I think it's called the First Rule? First Commandment? First Fixer...First Amendment!

We're free to criticize and debate our chosen leaders. Therefore we air our warts and wrinkles for all too see. It's not pretty but it's somewhat honest. I don't think any other country in the world has this rule codified into law. This is one of the reasons you'll never see something like Hate Speech codified into law in the USA, or misuse of pronouns or anything like that. As long as I'm not shouting fire in someone else's theater it's all cool. Doesn't mean I have to like it when the NuevoNazis (tm) come marching through my holocaust survivor neighborhood, but that's what the 2A is for, and a discussion for somewhere else.

Are you accusing me of restricting someone's speech? Hardly. Then you imply the right to keep and bear arms is for disposing of people you find abhorrent. BTW sarcasm is the hallmark of a man with nothing to say.

 

[Cholentpot]

Are you accusing me of restricting someone's speech? Hardly. Then you imply the right to keep and bear arms is for disposing of people you find abhorrent. BTW sarcasm is the hallmark of a man with nothing to say.

You can restrict my speech all you'd like. You're not the government.

I imply very strongly, nay! I advocate highly for one to defend their community themselves, from those wishing harm on them. Nothing makes a bully run away quicker than a group standing around with lead launchers.

Without crying about sarcasm though, you failed to address my point that due to freedom of speech and press in the USA our faults are open for all to see.

And as per 'whats been going on in America for hundreds of years' We're only a few hundred years old. We're still figuring out this self rule thing. It's kind of hard being the first at anything. I mean we can give up and go back to serfdom or gamble on a monarchy. Maybe we can try Communism or Socialism, that always worked out well for...well...no one? Oh sorry, my sarcasm is back. Silly me.

I think I'll stick with what we have, ugly warts and all. Still far better than where my ancestors came from. Getting massacred every few years sounds a little worse than having my feeling hurt.

It's also nice to be able to shoot back for once.

 

[Dali]

There no class in America (nyuk nyuk). We have a monetary based system but there is no caste or class system in America. We're all commoners, no Lords 'n Ladies 'n 'nobs.

British Royals who moved here are very confused by this.

Say it to Warren. I guess he knows what he is talking about.

 

[Cholentpot]

Say it to Warren. I guess he knows what he is talking about.

Prisoners of our own construct.

Classes of the mind. We don't have a house of lords. Just two houses of elected idiots.

 

[MattKing]

If you don't think you have a class system in the USA, you don't understand what is meant by a class system.
I'm not saying we don't have a sort of class system here in Canada, but the combination of our medical, educational and tax systems makes it far easier to move from class to class.

 

[Dali]

Prisoners of our own construct.

Classes of the mind. We don't have a house of lords. Just two houses of elected idiots.

Nobility and intelligence have nothing to do with social class. Like Matt wrote, I doubt you know what class system means. I won't elaborate further as it clearly has nothing to do with photography.

 

[Cholentpot]

If you don't think you have a class system in the USA, you don't understand what is meant by a class system.
I'm not saying we don't have a sort of class system here in Canada, but the combination of our medical, educational and tax systems makes it far easier to move from class to class.

I know exactly what a classical class system is. Who creates the classes in the USA? Is there anyone who can lift one from one class to the next? I'm 'lower class' can a senator clip me with a scepter and now I'm upper class? Can the president make a phone call and now I'm of the upper crust?

Or maybe the American class system is nothing at all, just a bunch of people insecure in their own culture that make a construct to look down on others. I venture to say that class in America is how one purports themselves. If one dresses well, acts with good manners and appears intelligent they are now one of 'class'. Look at some very famous people of the so called upper class wealth. Are they classy?

I'd like to quote Marx.

'I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member'

 

[Sirius Glass]

I know exactly what a classical class system is. Who creates the classes in the USA? Is there anyone who can lift one from one class to the next? I'm 'lower class' can a senator clip me with a scepter and now I'm upper class? Can the president make a phone call and now I'm of the upper crust?

Or maybe the American class system is nothing at all, just a bunch of people insecure in their own culture that make a construct to look down on others. I venture to say that class in America is how one purports themselves. If one dresses well, acts with good manners and appears intelligent they are now one of 'class'. Look at some very famous people of the so called upper class wealth. Are they classy?

I'd like to quote Marx.

'I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member'

You so nicely proved that you do not know anything about classes and classes in the US.

 

[Cholentpot]

You so nicely proved that you do not know anything about classes and classes in the US.

And you're proving that you buy into an imaginary construct.

There are no titles in USA. You can't be a Lord, Prince, King, Duke, Duchess, Earl, Count, Czar, Emperor, Baron or anything else. I mean you can call yourself what you'd like but it doesn't mean anything. Everyone in America is the same mud. I'm required to show fealty and respect to no one. Not even the President. Maybe I need to honor a judge when in court. All else has no legal binding.

Sure you can go on about income classes but at that point it's all stats and numbers. No one is passing laws stopping you from making money and moving up into the next bracket. You're not stuck in a class because of birth.

 

[MattKing]

You're not stuck in a class because of birth.

Ever met anyone who has an Ivy League education because their parents were alumni?
A very small portion of the class systems in place in this world assign class through birth.
Most do so through money and power..

 

[fdonadio]

I thought ignorance was some kind of “privilege”, only widely “available” in a third-world country like the one I live in. Strangely, knowing I was wrong doesn’t make me feel better...

 

[BrianShaw]

Most do so through money and power..

... some because they are born into a lot of money/power (or make a lot of money themselves); others because they were born into poverty and no power. Totally different classes.

 

[Cholentpot]

Ever met anyone who has an Ivy League education because their parents were alumni?
A very small portion of the class systems in place in this world assign class through birth.
Most do so through money and power..

Sure, I've met many. If someone goes on to earn loads of money, they too can game the system if they'd like.

Then again, turn it on it's head. They have an Ivy League education. Yay for them. Goody goody gumdrops. Am I supposed to envy them? I mean I can live my life bemoaning the unfairness of things or chose not to acknowledge it and it won't effect my life. I don't have to bow and scrape to someone from Yale or Harvard. I mean do we have to keep going back to the founding principles of the country?

'We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.'

I can pursuit happiness. It's work no doubt, no one is handing it to me but I think that's the gist of the word 'pursuit'. It doesn't say Life, Liberty and the guarantee of Happiness.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Sure, I've met many. If someone goes on to earn loads of money, they too can game the system if they'd like.

Then again, turn it on it's head. They have an Ivy League education. Yay for them. Goody goody gumdrops. Am I supposed to envy them? I mean I can live my life bemoaning the unfairness of things or chose not to acknowledge it and it won't effect my life. I don't have to bow and scrape to someone from Yale or Harvard. I mean do we have to keep going back to the founding principles of the country?

'We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.'

I can pursuit happiness. It's work no doubt, no one is handing it to me but I think that's the gist of the word 'pursuit'. It doesn't say Life, Liberty and the guarantee of Happiness.

People who graduate from Ivy League schools get opportunities that other graduates do not. First of all companies hire them because having them in the company gets the company opportunities the company would normally not get, because of the prestige and who the employee knows. Second the Ivy League employee will attract more Ivy League employees. Second the Ivy League employee will get raises at greater amounts than the other employees. Third the Ivy League employee will get more promotions and more often than other equally qualified candidates. Fourth the Ivy League employee knows other Ivy Leagues and that brings in business opportunities that are not offered to any other companies. I know as a manager in several major aerospace corporations that these are common and talked about in upper and top management. It is not fair, but it does exist.

 

[ParkerSmithPhoto]

I've noted anecdotally most photographers are Western white males. Why is that?

I've noted anecdotally most [of the greatest] photographers are Western white males [of Jewish descent]:

Penn
Avedon
Klein
Frank
Arbus
Friedlander
Winogrand
Strand
Stieglitz

Why is that?

I've noted anecdotally most great basketball players are Western black males. Why is that?
I've noted anecdotally most great hockey players are White Canadian males. Why is that?
I've noted anecdotally most great golfers come from California or Florida. Why is that?

 

[Cholentpot]

People who graduate from Ivy League schools get opportunities that other graduates do not. First of all companies hire them because having them in the company gets the company opportunities the company would normally not get, because of the prestige and who the employee knows. Second the Ivy League employee will attract more Ivy League employees. Second the Ivy League employee will get raises at greater amounts than the other employees. Third the Ivy League employee will get more promotions and more often than other equally qualified candidates. Fourth the Ivy League employee knows other Ivy Leagues and that brings in business opportunities that are not offered to any other companies. I know as a manager in several major aerospace corporations that these are common and talked about in upper and top management. It is not fair, but it does exist.

It's a club by any other name. This doesn't change my opinion about class in america. It's still a social construct as opposed to a lawful construct.

I've noted anecdotally most [of the greatest] photographers are Western white males [of Jewish descent]:

Penn
Avedon
Klein
Frank
Arbus
Friedlander
Winogrand
Strand
Stieglitz

Why is that?

I've noted anecdotally most great basketball players are Western black males. Why is that?
I've noted anecdotally most great hockey players are White Canadian males. Why is that?
I've noted anecdotally most great golfers come from California or Florida. Why is that?

We like taking photos. If we can't be a doctor or scientist our mothers are proud of 'my son, the photographer. You should see what he can do with a camera.'

Culturally speaking you need to have a bit of an attitude to be successful as a photographer yes? 20th Century immigrant or children of immigrant Jews had attitude in droves. The culture is one of confrontation and debate. The more debate and confrontation the better. It's still alive and well in enclaves. This transitions over to photography very well.

 

[MattKing]

'We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.'

Which, when written, only included property owning white males, and didn't do a good job of including them, if their religion didn't pass muster.

 

[Cholentpot]

Which, when written, only included property owning white males, and didn't do a good job of including them, if their religion didn't pass muster.

They weren't gods. If you read into the Federalist papers and other works from that period they struggled with the issue of slavery. Do you not agree that they made the world a better place? Should we condemn all the good they did for the world because of an original sin?

If not for those words and ideals being put into practice I'd be shoveling filth off a street or dead or more likely never have been born. The Founding Fathers planted the seeds of freedom, the USA fought a bloody prolonged war with itself over this. I'm an unabashed defender of the American form of law and code, I've gotten more out of it than my ancestors could have dreamed possible not even a century ago. They came here as a broken people and even though they were not welcomed with open arms they made their way. I can stand tall because of the guiding founding principles of those old white men 250 years ago.

 

[removed account4]

Check the calender dude, since 2014 its been 100% anti white christian heterosexual male NON STOP.

while this might be true since 2014.... for 1000years +. people who weren't white christian heterosexual male were beaten, raped, imprisoned, enslaved, tortured, burned at the stake, crucified, murdered, and other things the list is too long to type. I don't really think white christian heterosexual males have much to worry about seeing they run the planet earth, and are the ruling majority in this country and doing everything they can to insure they stay in power for as long as possible.
its too bad people can't just be nice.

 

[MattKing]

They weren't gods. If you read into the Federalist papers and other works from that period they struggled with the issue of slavery. Do you not agree that they made the world a better place? Should we condemn all the good they did for the world because of an original sin?

They were aspirational. And it isn't what the words say that matter, if they aren't administered and applied equally, fairly, and in a liberal manner.
And "liberal" doesn't mean what the talk show hosts and small minded politicians mean when they say the word.
The "founding fathers" of Canada were also aspirational - approximately 100 years later.
Our Constitutional structure reflects to a great extent a desire to avoid the mistakes of your founding fathers, with the carnage and tragedy of the just completed US Civil War being the backdrop. Not to mention the fact that the world's largest standing army was still mobilized to the south of the original Canadian provinces.
By that time of course, the English common law had several years earlier (prior to your Civil War) essentially forced the Parliament to outlaw slavery.
Canada is not free from problems of class and racism and religious prejudice.
And our historic treatment of our indigenous population is a source of shame.
But overall, our collective support for those at the bottom, and our expectation of those at the top, makes ours a more egalitarian society.
By the way, Canadians are not permitted to hold royal titles, although they may accept honours of recognition.

 

[Cholentpot]

They were aspirational. And it isn't what the words say that matter, if they aren't administered and applied equally, fairly, and in a liberal manner.
And "liberal" doesn't mean what the talk show hosts and small minded politicians mean when they say the word.
The "founding fathers" of Canada were also aspirational - approximately 100 years later.
Our Constitutional structure reflects to a great extent a desire to avoid the mistakes of your founding fathers, with the carnage and tragedy of the just completed US Civil War being the backdrop. Not to mention the fact that the world's largest standing army was still mobilized to the south of the original Canadian provinces.
By that time of course, the English common law had several years earlier (prior to your Civil War) essentially forced the Parliament to outlaw slavery.
Canada is not free from problems of class and racism and religious prejudice.
And our historic treatment of our indigenous population is a source of shame.
But overall, our collective support for those at the bottom, and our expectation of those at the top, makes ours a more egalitarian society.
By the way, Canadians are not permitted to hold royal titles, although they may accept honours of recognition.

Yet Canada does not have freedom of speech nor right to self defense enshrined, these are the tenets of individual freedoms. Montreal is having a fun 'ol time with their police force using antisemitic slurs this week. Very enlightened for the constabulary to call members of the media the 'Jew Media' fine fine examples of tolerance there Lou.

No-one is perfect. Humanity isn't perfect. Society isn't perfect, but I'm one to see the positives rather than the shortcomings.