Photographers' Formulary

David Lyga · Jul 24, 2020

They are 'down' for maintenance. But, for how long? Their ad gives no indication of the duration. I say this because they usually have a sale around Black Friday, right after Thanksgiving. How long can it take to 'reinstate' (renovate, rehabilitate, re-arrange) a warehouse? Strange. - David Lyga

Donald Qualls · Jul 24, 2020

Usually, that kind of notification indicates the web site being maintained, which typically takes minutes to a few hours.

And you do know it's still July, right? Four months until Black Friday...

David Lyga · Jul 24, 2020

Donald Qualls said:
Usually, that kind of notification indicates the web site being maintained, which typically takes minutes to a few hours.

And you do know it's still July, right? Four months until Black Friday...

I think that I am going 'to win' on this one. I have my doubts that Black Friday will be Chemical Friday. (I would love to be wrong.) - David Lyga

Vaughn · Jul 24, 2020

Because their workshops are all cancelled for the duration, they have closed the whole operation down to renew the facilities...which extend far beyond a warehouse and chemical handling. Facilities for classrooms, darkrooms, studio space, lodging, food prep, dining, and so on.

I have not heard of a timeline for re-opening yet.

Short notice about the closing and a good article (and great links) about a modern carbon printer:

https://mcusercontent.com/937a0cf5b...Grier_and_Formulary_remodel_07_21_2020_2_.pdf

Bormental · Jul 24, 2020

They've been having technical issues right before they went down. I was getting "you are exceeding request limit" messages. My bet is that something is wrong with their setup (most likely they're over some kind of usage quota) and they're urgently fixing it. They're a small shop, so they're probably working with some contractors to get it done, this means no control over timing.

DREW WILEY · Jul 24, 2020

Yikes! I'm glad I got a substantial order filled by them not too long ago, trying to stock up enough chem for a number of months. And I hope they will be up and running in terms of shipping again in the not too distant future. Workshops are of course a different issue which will have to await the end of the virus. And in Montana, if any of the remodeling involves building exteriors, suitable summer weather itself is finite, and work has to get done promptly. I wish them well.

David Lyga · Jul 24, 2020

DREW WILEY said:
Yikes! I'm glad I got a substantial order filled by them not too long ago, trying to stock up enough chem for a number of months. And I hope they will be up and running in terms of shipping again in the not too distant future. Workshops are of course a different issue which will have to await the end of the virus. And in Montana, if any of the remodeling involves building exteriors, suitable summer weather itself is finite, and work has to get done promptly. I wish them well.

ARTCRAFT is not exactly a shoddy alternative. - David Lyga

Old_Dick · Jul 24, 2020

Folks,

Latest email I received. They are looking at 2021.

“We’re Remodeling!” We’re Remodeling! In this downtime from the COVID-19 virus, we’ve grabbed the opportunity to make some changes in the warehouse with overdue upgrades to our production areas. In the meantime we’ve suspended operations. The Photographers Formulary, 19th Century Workshops and Standing Stones B&B are closed for now. We look forward to when we can reopen safely and to your visit in 2021, and to helping you enjoy your stay in Montana! We miss the activity and creativity, the talks and sharing, but some things won’t change. Bud will still bake salmon on a cedar plank every Friday night, and Lynn’s famous Montana Breakfasts will assure every guest goes off for a day’s exploring on a full tummy. We’re already planning our 19th Century Workshops schedule for Summer 2021. We’re sorry we had to cancel the 2020 season because of the COVID-19 pandemic, but the health and safety of our guests and our staff is paramount. As we develop the schedule for Summer 2021 we’ll post more information on Facebook, Twitter, Insta-gram and the Formulary website. Enjoy the article showcasing master Carbon printer, Calvin Grier, and we look forward to seeing you next year in Montana! Stay well! Lynn and Bud Wilson

DREW WILEY · Jul 24, 2020

Thanks David, and yes, I have ordered chem from Artcraft too. But I use a fair amount of TF4 fixer, which is a Formulary specialty, and certain other items I can't easily find elsewhere. I should have enough supplies to last the rest of the year. We used to have a wonderful chem supplier in this area, which also sold lots of pharmaceutical and hospital chem. They were surrounded with biotech and pharmaceutical plants. When they retired, two assistants bought the business and were doing quite well. But both of them had done phD dissertations on relatively arcane substances that suddenly became a very hot commodity in Silicon Valley, and they simply couldn't refuse the high level of pay being offered for their expertise, so that was that. I've had only so-so success getting the local photo store to keep in stock certain Formulary items. They have rental darkrooms and all of that, but those student types aren't exactly connoisseurs of the craft. They probably refresh the fixer only every six hundred thousand years or so.

Paul Howell · Jul 25, 2020

I ordered a PF D76 kit from Adomona, it's on backorder, had to buy a bag of Kodak D76. Wonder when PF will be back up and running.

Donald Qualls · Jul 25, 2020

Paul Howell said:
I ordered a PF D76 kit from Adomona, it's on backorder, had to buy a bag of Kodak D76. Wonder when PF will be back up and running.

Might be worth ordering in some metol, hydroquinone, and sodium sulfite (and get a box of borax in the laundry aisle at the supermarket) and start just mixing your own. Check the formula before you order, you might need some potassium bromide as well.

Buying your chemicals this way will save you a factor of five or better on developer cost, and the only extra equipment you'll need is a small scale accurate to a tenth of a gram (should cost less than $30) to weigh out the ingredients. I use a reloading scale I bought to make ammunition almost forty years ago.

Paul Howell · Jul 26, 2020

I believe that PF is on the Black Foot Reservation, business are closed.

BLACKFEET COVID-19 ORDINANCE
> Curfew from 11:00 p.m. to 6:00 a.m.

> Social distancing

> Face masks required at all times while in public

> Stay-at-Home order (until July 31, 2020)

> Business closure order

> Sale of alcohol: 12:00 – 8:00 p.m. (Mon.-Weds.); 12:00 – 6:00 p.m. (Thurs.); CLOSED for sale (Fri.-Sun.)

> Vacation rental closures

> Closure of entrances to Glacier National Park located within the Blackfeet Reservation

> Closure of roads within the Blackfeet Reservation to non-essential travel

> Quarantine for 14 days if you have traveled to an area infected with COVID-19

Paul Howell · Aug 24, 2020

Web site open, just order MCM 100, paied with Pay Pal, waiting for shipment confirmation.

cjbecker · Aug 24, 2020

I just received my 130 developer from them. So they are open!

Paul Howell · Aug 24, 2020

The MCM 100 is on the way.

David Lyga · Aug 25, 2020

Donald Qualls said:
Might be worth ordering in some metol, hydroquinone, and sodium sulfite (and get a box of borax in the laundry aisle at the supermarket) and start just mixing your own. Check the formula before you order, you might need some potassium bromide as well.

Buying your chemicals this way will save you a factor of five or better on developer cost, and the only extra equipment you'll need is a small scale accurate to a tenth of a gram (should cost less than $30) to weigh out the ingredients. I use a reloading scale I bought to make ammunition almost forty years ago.

Of course, if you do it the David Lyga way, you don't need a scale, just a small, calibrated cylinder. - David Lyga

Donald Qualls · Aug 25, 2020

David Lyga said:
Of course, if you do it the David Lyga way, you don't need a scale, just a small, calibrated cylinder. - David Lyga

I presume you've got density figures for the chemicals you use and just measure by volume. That works fine, until you change suppliers or they get a new batch -- but you still need an accurate scale to calibrate your density figure. Possibly doesn't need to read in 0.1g if you're weighing a hundred gram sample, though.

David Lyga · Aug 25, 2020

You know, for B&W developers I find that accuracy to the tenth of a gram is entirely superfluous. (Maybe it is with benzontriazole or phenidone, but we are not talking about these here.) I have had NO problem measuring in this way and I will also 'commit a sacrilege' by stating that I ROUTINELY measure even pre-packaged powders in this way as well. For example, a one liter package of Dekrol has 125 mL in volume, If I want to mix 200 mL of stock solution I simply use 25 mL of the powder.

Theoretically, that can lead to mismatches with the various components of the developer. But I will wager that if you hired a mathematician to do the numbers, the bell curve standard deviation for error would be maxed at about 3%, and most likely even less. For DECADES I have done this with no ulterior results.

Fears can be surprisingly effective with never daring to do things like this. Repetition does wonders to harness such nefarious activities. But, through many years of experience, I now have none of those fears. Whenever I mix a new batch of developer, I always do a simple clip test. I always find that I did not have to do that, but I still do, just to be certain.

I am a little bit on the weird side, but that weirdness does me, or others, no lasting harm. - David Lyga

Donald Qualls · Aug 25, 2020

How far off the mix is when you use a partial package of premix depends very strongly on how well the components were mixed in the first place, and what influences might have caused the components to stratify in the package after it was sealed.

Different particle sizes of the same density will tend to sort with the larger particles on top (this is a known geological phenomenon, whereby frost action produces patches of soil with boulders on top, gravel and then sand below). Particles the same size but different density will tend to sort with the least dense on top, assuming the difference is more than few percent. Both of these processes will take both time and movement of the package contents.

How much that affects your end product will vary. If it works for you, go for it. I find liquids keep well enough in well sealed PET that there's no harm in mixing a whole 5L Xtol or similar, even though that's more than a year's supply.

David Lyga · Aug 25, 2020

Donald Qualls said:
How far off the mix is when you use a partial package of premix depends very strongly on how well the components were mixed in the first place, and what influences might have caused the components to stratify in the package after it was sealed.

Different particle sizes of the same density will tend to sort with the larger particles on top (this is a known geological phenomenon, whereby frost action produces patches of soil with boulders on top, gravel and then sand below). Particles the same size but different density will tend to sort with the least dense on top, assuming the difference is more than few percent. Both of these processes will take both time and movement of the package contents.

How much that affects your end product will vary. If it works for you, go for it. I find liquids keep well enough in well sealed PET that there's no harm in mixing a whole 5L Xtol or similar, even though that's more than a year's supply.

Well, theoretically, you are on target, but in the real world I have YET to see such manifestation of larger particles congregating in one area and smaller ones doing likewise. But, before mixing, one can shake the bag a little to placate one's fears.

I know that all of this strikes one as odd, dangerous, nefarious and dastardly, but, it works, and has worked for decades, for me. To be honest, there has never been a discussion about whether hard or soft water has any bearing on the development properties, so those who posit utter perfection with mixing might be missing something else that is right under their nose.

Certainly, what Donald says here is backed by research and scientific/ physics theory. He is not "wrong" and what he says falls right into place with all the trusted literature. But, increasingly in life, I tend to gravitate towards making things as easy as possible without that 'cutting of corners' showing any obvious, even slight, deviation from what I wish to achieve in finality. In summation, I tend to live in the real, as opposed to the theoretical, world. - David Lyga

Vaughn · Aug 25, 2020

There is no 'real world' nor any theoretical ones either...only this one. Film type, time, temp and agitation are not all that important either if one gets what one wants. But good to know, David, if you post a problem, we'll know what possible causes you are having.

David Lyga · Aug 25, 2020

Vaughn said:
There is no 'real world' nor any theoretical ones either...only this one. Film type, time, temp and agitation are not all that important either if one gets what one wants. But good to know, David, if you post a problem, we'll know what possible causes you are having.

Thank you, Vaughn. You should have been a philosopher; an existential one. - David Lyga

Donald Qualls · Aug 25, 2020

You're on the opposite side from Bormental, Sirius Glass, and AgX. If you demand absolutely consistent results, their way gives them. If you don't, and you like what you get, you're fine.

David Lyga · Aug 25, 2020

Vaughn said:
There is no 'real world' nor any theoretical ones either...only this one. Film type, time, temp and agitation are not all that important either if one gets what one wants. But good to know, David, if you post a problem, we'll know what possible causes you are having.

I don't want to hijack this thread but I HAVE to know the difference between the real world and the actual world. There is something either that I am missing or something is amiss with the statement.

The only explanation of the disparity would seem to be a misconception, among humans, as to what constitutes reality. But, again, I don't want to hijack this so I will not be offended if a response is not forthcoming. - David Lyga

MattKing · Aug 25, 2020

I'm always reluctant to add a source of unpredictability if I can easily avoid it so, with one exception*, I don't do what David does.
But I don't have any problems with people who have sufficient experience, like David, making an informed choice to increase certain risks in return for convenience.
I get a bit concerned about using the internet to advise others to do that - it is advice that is best suited to experienced people who can understand the ramifications, and not well suited to those who are new to this.
As I understand it, some powdered chemicals aren't even mixed to homogeneity by the manufacturers - they simply fill the containers/packages by adding the appropriate amounts of the individual components and then rely on the chemicals reaching homogeneity after dilution in water.
*The exception is Kodak HCA. Well I could go through the expense and hassle of buying raw chemicals - not easy or cheap in Canada - and mixing it up as I go, I just buy it by the package, pour it into a small glass bottle and dissolve a small capful in 600 ml of water each time I develop film.
HCA is mostly Sodium Sulphite plus some Sodium metabisulphite to adjust ph - variations in the mix aren't going to matter with our tap water.
I print with RC papers, so don't use wash aids there.
I could also see doing what David does with print developers, although I would be more likely to check the accuracy from time to time with a scale.

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