Photographer posts; photographers seeking "validation"

[LAG]

I knew it was an urinal upside down. I put it ironically to underline Dali that "nothing exceptional".

All the Best, to both of you

 

[jtk]

I guess what I'm saying is that these NOOBS aren't asking for advice, are not seeking the right way to do things, they are just bragging about their way of doing it and seeking validation. What's your take? I don't really know how to parse this as a poll, but if someone else would create one, I'll participate.[/QUOTE]

I'm 75...I learn a lot from "noobs" (who uses that term?). I don't complain much, try not to be cranky. Shooting/developing/printing since age 8, I'm doing my best work right now. Still shooting film (I enjoy scanning), mostly shooting mirrorless digital.

Suggestion: find a good lover ( woman in my case), or let one find you.

 

[Bill Burk]

Suggestion: find a good lover ( woman in my case), or let one find you.

Last time I did that, my photographic productivity plummeted...

She's by my side now.

 

[silveror0]

.... Suggestion: find a good lover ( woman in my case), or let one find you.

Last time I did that, my photographic productivity plummeted...

She's by my side now.

Same here, Bill.

My thoughts relating to this thread:
I'm a fan of brainstorming, a group problem-solving technique that involves the spontaneous contribution of ideas from all members of the group; mulling over ideas by one or more individuals in an attempt to devise or find a solution to a problem, where the rule is that insults/mockery of any idea are not allowed. It's a civilized method, not at all like the stuff seen on some forums and social media. I cringe when I see comments such as "this seems to be a solution in search of a problem."

But, I think this technique should not be restricted to problem-solving; it could also be a useful technique for simply mulling ANY ideas presented (for whatever reason) on the internet, under the same "civility rule" for the purpose of letting the creative brains of the world run, with no expectation of an outcome. Likely a case of "good luck with that", given the rampant violations of the rule would be impossible to control. The anonymity of the internet allows violators/hecklers to holler from the shadows in the back of the room, using the protections of "freedom from civility."

 

[trendland]

I'm just throwing this out here to see if others feel this way, too.

When I was young (and dinosaurs roamed the earth) this whole "interweb" thing did not exist. We had great photo magazines like the British Journal of Photography, Modern Photography and Popular Photography. And we had "gurus" that wrote monthly columns; folks like David Vestal and Cora Wright Kennedy, etc.

These folks and many others wrote monthly columns mostly detailing their own adventures in the darkroom. There were other mags and other writers but I noticed a trend, more and more folks writing to ask, not for advice, but rather for validation for whatever hair-brained half-cocked exposure or processing notion they had already conceived. If the columnist, based on "lo their many years doing something the right way" told the newcomer it won't work, the newbie would start an argument. Later in my timeline the columnists started suggesting an experimental method the newcomer could use to test his idea in the laboratory/darkroom and would again get ignored.

It seems to have got worse as things progressed (especially after Al Gore invented the Internet). Not so much on this forum which is well moderated and screwed down (in a good way) but groups on less moderated forums. It's been a downhill slide progressing from BBS's, Newsgroups, Chat rooms, Yahoo groups and now Facebook. And all the replies on such forums have equal weight, with only a casual read you never know if the responder is a 21st. Century version of Ansel Adams, Geoff Crawley, etc. or some "fauxtographer" that got a film camera just this week, loves shooting "redscale", Chardonnay (some of them process their film in wine) and long walks in the moonlight. And these folks are quite willing to squirt Canon AE-1's full of WD40, take apart Compur shutters for CLA's, and fix their own cameras.

I don't consider myself an expert but I've done a photographic thing or two in 50 years taking pictures and 40+ years developing my own stuff, I have a huge reference library which includes some heavy hitters which I won't bother to list here. I can do computers, math, and chemistry. And I can make Internet search engines "sing"; I did it for a living when I did computer tech support. So if someone asks and I don't know the answer I can refer them to someone or some published work that really knows how to do these things.

I guess what I'm saying is that these NOOBS aren't asking for advice, are not seeking the right way to do things, they are just bragging about their way of doing it and seeking validation. What's your take? I don't really know how to parse this as a poll, but if someone else would create one, I'll participate.

You are right - but I would not care about.
As you said - you have the experience.
After soo many years you should be able to solv all things.With some little exeptions

with regards

 

[removed account4]

i wish the ( self declared ) gate keepers and their surrogates would stop hassling people,
no one is harming anyone, no one is destroying anyone's sensibilities
they are just having a good time.

 

[jtk]

Look into Match.com.

 

[removed account4]

Look into Match.com.

?

 

[P.johnson14]

I find this interesting. In every hobby, you have folks complaining about the noobs. It's in classic cars, classic tractors, 4x4 groups, ham radio, painting groups, etc.

I do photography party because I find it a relaxing solitary activity. I don't take photos or try new techniques to impress anybody other than myself. My work will never be in any gallery or on any wall that I don't own.

It took me a long time to learn, but at this point in my life, noob or not, I'm tired of arguing with people unless I'm getting paid. So, with that in mind, it's trial and error for me these days. What's to loose? It's not like anything I photograph actually matters to anyone but me.

If I have a question, chances are someone else asked on here before me, and google is a great thing.

 

[darkroommike]

This is a very old thread and seems to have wandered off course. So let me see if I can give it a bit of a steer. My observations are not about noobs in general, we were all noobs once upon a time, and I still learn a thing or two from this board and other forums every week. My point was more along the idea that some folks found this forum without knowing how to use Google and Google actually powers the Photrio search engine, so it would be great if you searched existing threads before posting. And secondly there is a subset of novice darkroom types that read something here and something there and borrowed a little bit from what Joe said and have somehow created a process that they are sure works and then post something along the line of "I have never done this before but this is the way I plan to do it by golly, what do you think, and please don't be negative." As I said , not really seeking advice just validation.

 

[trendland]

This is a very old thread and seems to have wandered off course. So let me see if I can give it a bit of a steer. My observations are not about noobs in general, we were all noobs once upon a time, and I still learn a thing or two from this board and other forums every week. My point was more along the idea that some folks found this forum without knowing how to use Google and Google actually powers the Photrio search engine, so it would be great if you searched existing threads before posting. And secondly there is a subset of novice darkroom types that read something here and something there and borrowed a little bit from what Joe said and have somehow created a process that they are sure works and then post something along the line of "I have never done this before but this is the way I plan to do it by golly, what do you think, and please don't be negative." As I said , not really seeking advice just validation.

Well - that are fine conclusions we may hear from you - meanwhile. Best wishes.

PS : Somewhere in the future I may have a look what the meaning of "noobs" aktualy is. I realy can't imagine but it seams to be something about to be new in the neighborhood of photographers a.s.o.

 

[TheFlyingCamera]

Well - that are fine conclusions we may hear from you - meanwhile. Best wishes.

PS : Somewhere in the future I may have a look what the meaning of "noobs" aktualy is. I realy can't imagine but it seams to be something about to be new in the neighborhood of photographers a.s.o.

Noob aka Newb is short for Newbie - as in someone who is brand new to a particular activity.

As to the "posting stuff up and seeking validation", you know... thinking about it, well... that's perfectly legitimate. People go off and experiment and try new stuff, and then they want to know if it strikes a chord and registers with others, to decide if it's worth continuing to do. So they post it online, or take it to camera clubs, or whatever the venue, and hope for validation. I know that the vast majority of experimental stuff sucks buffalo chips, but frankly, so does the vast majority of Ansel Adams wannabe stuff too. Sharp picture of a fuzzy idea, and all that. There absolutely is a place for sustaining traditional fine-art photography, but if we want the medium, especially the analog wet-darkroom end of the medium, to survive and thrive into the 21st and even into the 22nd century and beyond, well, the medium needs to innovate to remain relevant and meaningful to people coming along and discovering its potential to say something that resonates for THEM. And how do you make chemical photography in a wet darkroom resonant to someone younger than The Internet itself? It's a collision of two media that have little in common, so there's going to be a big mess made while the relationship is figured out.

 

[jtk]

"... how do you make chemical photography in a wet darkroom resonant to someone younger than The Internet itself? It's a collision of two media that have little in common, so there's going to be a big mess made while the relationship is figured out."

Would we want to make 36hp VW bugs or or 45rpm records or trapdoor woolen underwear "resonant to someone younger than..." ?

 

[jtk]

Well - that are fine conclusions we may hear from you - meanwhile. Best wishes.

PS : Somewhere in the future I may have a look what the meaning of "noobs" aktualy is. I realy can't imagine but it seams to be something about to be new in the neighborhood of photographers a.s.o.

Seems like most Photrio contributors are old folks (film era) like me. The "noobs" are probably mostly elsewhere, especially the film makers.

 

[Bill Burk]

I have no problem with anyone who posts “look at what I did” seeking validation, and I hope I can help. My ego kept me from sharing when I was younger and I was jealous of successful photographers. Now my ego is somewhat relaxed and I get more pleasure from seeing what other people are up to.

 

[Bill Burk]

And I like to think we are sitting in for David Vestal... I know I don’t have the wealth of knowledge he had. But collectively we come close.

 

[removed account4]

it is really sad everyting is always
an " us vs them" thing

"us" being people who research questions heavily before posting it
"us" being people who have a rigid view of what photography is
"us" being people who ...

and "them" being those people who don't do everything the way "we" want

what a drag ..

 

[jim10219]

This is a very old thread and seems to have wandered off course. So let me see if I can give it a bit of a steer. My observations are not about noobs in general, we were all noobs once upon a time, and I still learn a thing or two from this board and other forums every week. My point was more along the idea that some folks found this forum without knowing how to use Google and Google actually powers the Photrio search engine, so it would be great if you searched existing threads before posting. And secondly there is a subset of novice darkroom types that read something here and something there and borrowed a little bit from what Joe said and have somehow created a process that they are sure works and then post something along the line of "I have never done this before but this is the way I plan to do it by golly, what do you think, and please don't be negative." As I said , not really seeking advice just validation.

I think your complaint, as I understand it, doesn’t relate so much to photography as the human condition. Validation is human nature. No one likes being told they’re wrong. People naturally confuse belief with knowledge. Plus there’s the famous Dunning-Kruger effect. The more you learn, the less you know.

Progression through mimickery is fast but limited in scope. True innovation requires ignoring convention and forging one’s own path. Society depends on a healthy mix of those willing to listen and follow in the footsteps of the experts, and those willing to ignore them and trust their gut instinct. It’s a gamble, but nothing ventured; nothing gained. Without those willing to ignore the advice of the experts, we would still be in the Stone Age.

The irony of your situation is that you’re seeking validation in your disgust of others who seek validation. Try not to think in terms of right and wrong, or good and bad. These are self imposed limitations. Reality isn’t a duality. Often times our greatest failures can become our greatest accomplishments through the lens of time. So just relax and enjoy the process. Allow others to stumble where they like. They may stumble across something blissful and new. You focus on you. And try to understand that not everyone behind a keyboard is having a good day. I know these same things bother me, and I often have the same complaints. And I’m certainly guilty of both being the know-it-all, noob in search of validation, and the cranky old man who lets his anger override his compassion. But I still think it’s important to remind myself, and be reminded by others from time to time, that we’re all humans and sometimes the faults in others that bother us the most do so because they are a reflection of the parts of ourselves that we most dislike.

 

[TheFlyingCamera]

"... how do you make chemical photography in a wet darkroom resonant to someone younger than The Internet itself? It's a collision of two media that have little in common, so there's going to be a big mess made while the relationship is figured out."

Would we want to make 36hp VW bugs or or 45rpm records or trapdoor woolen underwear "resonant to someone younger than..." ?

Why are you raising a big middle finger to the next generation of photographers, telling them that if they don't use your preferred media the way YOU want them to, then they can go piss off and die? If you want your film, paper and chemicals to still be around in your lifetime, you better damn well hope they become resonant to the under-30 crowd or they'll just stop being made and become unavailable at any price.

 

[trendland]

Seems like most Photrio contributors are old folks (film era) like me. The "noobs" are probably mostly elsewhere, especially the film makers.

I personaly did not know old folks who shot film...because they have been the very first using digital equipment. Some have bought the latest stuff in digital and spend highest sums for that.
"What is this - is it your 4th digital camera? "My 4th - no it is the 7th" ! ...
But I know some younger guys (midt 20)
who shot on film. But the problem with that guys is not the less experience because they could easyly learn - most have a total different look on visual issues - their big big advantage.!!!
The problem is : " They have no standing to proceed with film " because digital is more easy for the most of them.
The last of that kind of younger folks I meet in a studio. He was the son of a collegue. His age was 19 and he was fully equiped with 4x5 inch.(photo student). On my question to the film he decided (bw) he answered :"We have to shot one film ISO 100 and one film ISO 400 " (box speed).So I asked why he spoke about "We have to......" he could be glad to be allowed to use this full equipment from school including films and development - he had NO COSTS !
But you are totaly right -all of them (perhaps it is indeed caused from younger age) have a need of validation.

with regards

 

[darkroommike]

Why are you raising a big middle finger to the next generation of photographers, telling them that if they don't use your preferred media the way YOU want them to, then they can go piss off and die? If you want your film, paper and chemicals to still be around in your lifetime, you better damn well hope they become resonant to the under-30 crowd or they'll just stop being made and become unavailable at any price.

What an ugly thing to say, I am merely saying that if they have already decided on a course of action contrary to the ways that not me but Kodak, Ilford, Agfa, Foma, etc. etc. etc. etc. say will work why post for validation? What is the point in someone just getting started, posting something along those line. No photos, no results, just "this is the way I am doing it".

 

[removedacct1]

I knew I was going to regret clicking on this thread. What a drag, indeed. So many harsh judgements.

 

[faberryman]

If you want your film, paper and chemicals to still be around in your lifetime, you better damn well hope they become resonant to the under-30 crowd or they'll just stop being made and become unavailable at any price.

Actually, I think it is the other way around. I have only so many years left as an active photographer. So my interest in film availability is relatively short term. It is the younger folks who ought to be worried about the long term availability of film. They had best not rely on the older generation of photographers to continue shooting film to sustain the industry. And it's fine if film resonates with the under 30 crowd; if not, that's fine too. Things change. Why all the drama?

 

[Ko.Fe.]

This is a very old thread and seems to have wandered off course. So let me see if I can give it a bit of a steer. My observations are not about noobs in general, we were all noobs once upon a time, and I still learn a thing or two from this board and other forums every week. My point was more along the idea that some folks found this forum without knowing how to use Google and Google actually powers the Photrio search engine, so it would be great if you searched existing threads before posting. And secondly there is a subset of novice darkroom types that read something here and something there and borrowed a little bit from what Joe said and have somehow created a process that they are sure works and then post something along the line of "I have never done this before but this is the way I plan to do it by golly, what do you think, and please don't be negative." As I said , not really seeking advice just validation.

Why exercise your brain with search instead of asking something already discussed in numerous topics and forums? Two most laziest questions are UV filter on digital forums and x-ray on film forums. Same two questions over and over again for years and weekly. People are too lazy and primitive for using of search engines...
It took me under two minutes to search the answer for yet another popped out thread about fujifilm and x-ray.
http://www.fujifilm.ca/support/Serv...o?dbid=670399&prodcat=502824&sscucatid=664277

Also, most of the search engines attached to forum engines are garbage. Just as garbage as bing is. The only 100% working search method I'm aware of is "your search" site:"site where to search". Or just enter your search in google.

 

[jtk]

And I like to think we are sitting in for David Vestal... I know I don’t have the wealth of knowledge he had. But collectively we come close.

I have only marginal awareness of Vestal. Pop Photography? I used to see that magazine in dentists offices. I'm not much of an athlete, but various sports magazines, found in auto repair shops, are dominated by better photos than that magazine

I shouldn't be such a wise guy about Vestal, but I do think preoccupation with photo toys and techniques is a negative influence on photographic art.