Photographer posts; photographers seeking "validation"

[darkroommike]

I'm just throwing this out here to see if others feel this way, too.

When I was young (and dinosaurs roamed the earth) this whole "interweb" thing did not exist. We had great photo magazines like the British Journal of Photography, Modern Photography and Popular Photography. And we had "gurus" that wrote monthly columns; folks like David Vestal and Cora Wright Kennedy, etc.

These folks and many others wrote monthly columns mostly detailing their own adventures in the darkroom. There were other mags and other writers but I noticed a trend, more and more folks writing to ask, not for advice, but rather for validation for whatever hair-brained half-cocked exposure or processing notion they had already conceived. If the columnist, based on "lo their many years doing something the right way" told the newcomer it won't work, the newbie would start an argument. Later in my timeline the columnists started suggesting an experimental method the newcomer could use to test his idea in the laboratory/darkroom and would again get ignored.

It seems to have got worse as things progressed (especially after Al Gore invented the Internet). Not so much on this forum which is well moderated and screwed down (in a good way) but groups on less moderated forums. It's been a downhill slide progressing from BBS's, Newsgroups, Chat rooms, Yahoo groups and now Facebook. And all the replies on such forums have equal weight, with only a casual read you never know if the responder is a 21st. Century version of Ansel Adams, Geoff Crawley, etc. or some "fauxtographer" that got a film camera just this week, loves shooting "redscale", Chardonnay (some of them process their film in wine) and long walks in the moonlight. And these folks are quite willing to squirt Canon AE-1's full of WD40, take apart Compur shutters for CLA's, and fix their own cameras.

I don't consider myself an expert but I've done a photographic thing or two in 50 years taking pictures and 40+ years developing my own stuff, I have a huge reference library which includes some heavy hitters which I won't bother to list here. I can do computers, math, and chemistry. And I can make Internet search engines "sing"; I did it for a living when I did computer tech support. So if someone asks and I don't know the answer I can refer them to someone or some published work that really knows how to do these things.

I guess what I'm saying is that these NOOBS aren't asking for advice, are not seeking the right way to do things, they are just bragging about their way of doing it and seeking validation. What's your take? I don't really know how to parse this as a poll, but if someone else would create one, I'll participate.

 

[Richard S. (rich815)]

A poll? Answering what exactly?

From what you talk about it's not exclusive to photography but everything. Everyone wants to believe a "magic bullet" short cut exists rather than hard work, dedication and experimentation. And even that last part not so important if you ride the coat tails of those before you. Personally I like to experiment just to have fun in seeing my varying results. I share them sometimes not for validation but to show what might have or has worked for me.

Recently I took up playing guitar. I had no idea the amount of modifications and tweaking and pimping that people do to basic strats and telecasters and their various knockoffs to give their guitar that extra edge, that better sound. Then there's the incessant arguing over which telecaster knock-off from China or Korea is "best" and in what ways to tweak it be it changing the necks, which pickups to use, whether to recarve out the string grooves, or raise the pickups, etc, etc. And do not get started on which wood makes the best guitar bodies! Ash? Maple? Alder? Pine? Mahogany? Heck they even use the expression GAS like we do! (http://www.seymourduncan.com/forum/showthread.php?31673-What-s-the-best-wood-for-a-Telecaster-body). The parallels to camera equipment and films and development technique discussions are quite fascinating. And then of course you see people posting YouTube videos playing their customized guitar rigs as if such can prove what they did made it better, sort of like we post JPEGs online to show how one film or developing technique did better than another. In the end it's the same: a good guitarist can make almost any decent guitar sound great.

 

[pdeeh]

everything new - especially young people - is just awful isn't it?

also, newbies keep standing on a grassed area just in front of my house.

 

[Ko.Fe.]

...And these folks are quite willing to squirt Canon AE-1's full of WD40, take apart Compur shutters for CLA's, and fix their own cameras.
.....

I guess what I'm saying is that these NOOBS aren't asking for advice, are not seeking the right way to do things, they are just bragging about their way of doing it and seeking validation...

Strange assumptions.

Yes, where are some folks who would dump WD40 in the lens and camera, but many would google it for detailed instructions and where are plenty search returns for threads asking for advice.
This is how I fixed many old cameras which nobody else was willing to fix. And not just by WD40...

BTW, Yahoo groups seems to be old folks place and FB isn't far from it

 

[Old-N-Feeble]

I think it's more a matter of people wanting to matter and make a difference. There's nothing wrong with curiosity and abstract thinking... that is how new things are invented. Sure, some ideas are a bit harebrained but so what? All ideas should be shared and discussed by whomever wishes to do so. I'm as dumb as a stump but not all my ideas are totally worthless, though some here would surely argue to the contrary.

BTW, I actually did spray lube into an old Kodak Retina trying to make it work. I was ten or eleven years old and (even more so then) dumb as a stump. Of course, I destroyed it. I sneaked it back into the closet where it had lain for many years untouched by my father... who I NEVER told what I did... 'cause I didn't want a butt-whoopin'.

 

[removed account4]

nothing wrong with questioning authority, questioning authorities, or experimenting a bit, its too bad
people feel intimidated / threatened by people just having a good time.

oh well ... to each their own ...

 

[tedr1]

the internet changed everything

the smartphone changed everything again

people haven't changed but the old ways don't work anymore new ones are being found

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

I think it's more a matter of people wanting to matter and make a difference. There's nothing wrong with curiosity and abstract thinking... that is how new things are invented. Sure, some ideas are a bit harebrained but so what? All ideas should be shared and discussed by whomever wishes to do so.

I agree 100%. If people are afraid to voice their ideas then they won't tell us about them. Because they are then afraid to tell us about their ideas, we don't get to hear all of the bad ideas, but sadly we also miss out on the good ones.
And, sometimes really good ideas come out of bad ones, just because they caused someone to steer their thoughts down a different path for a while.

Also, let's not mistake curiosity and enthusiasm for "Look at me!", but it could well be they're just trying to be helpful sharing what information they know. Everybody has a different frame of reference, and somebody who thinks they are pretty well versed on a topic might be considered a genius by some and a fool by another. But somehow it all counts, and a person's opinion is never fully understood until we also know their frame of reference.

I'll go out on a limb and say that people have always had a desire to feel important, to matter, to feel needed... to have meaning. One of the best ways to find meaning is to help others.
Today, however, there are a lot more avenues to speak our opinion, to record it for others to see. In fact, there is so much of it that it's sometimes really hard to notice when somebody posts something profound, because by the time we're done reading it, ten more opinions will have been voiced. It's never perfect, is it?

 

[MattKing]

Photography can be a very solitary activity. What may appear to be an attempt to seek validation may actually be rooted in a desire to be part of a community.

 

[michr]

These folks and many others wrote monthly columns mostly detailing their own adventures in the darkroom. There were other mags and other writers but I noticed a trend, more and more folks writing to ask, not for advice, but rather for validation for whatever hair-brained half-cocked exposure or processing notion they had already conceived. If the columnist, based on "lo their many years doing something the right way" told the newcomer it won't work, the newbie would start an argument. Later in my timeline the columnists started suggesting an experimental method the newcomer could use to test his idea in the laboratory/darkroom and would again get ignored. .

What makes you think that people weren't writing in all the time with their half-cocked schemes? I would guess that every magazine received far more than two or three letters to the editor every month. But there's only so much room in a magazine. I wonder if over time, some less reputable magazines figured out a way to drum up interest by publishing the less-than-astute letters, the more controversial, or more easily mocked.

Things are certainly different now when anyone can post virtually anything on a forum and make all sorts of wild assertions. Often they get a response far in excess of the attention their post deserves.

 

[faberryman]

I would hate to tamp down the enthusiasm expressed by new film photographers.

 

[darinwc]

"I guess what I'm saying is that these NOOBS aren't asking for advice, are not seeking the right way to do things, they are just bragging about their way of doing it and seeking validation. What's your take? "

They don't know anything but tiny dots of color. Systematically illuminated in a repeatable pattern over and over again. Disappearing in a puff of logic. They grew up on it. That's all they ever knew.

For you and I, watching an image appear on a white sheet of paper in a tub of foul smelling chemicals is as normal as apple pie. But for those young-ins.. it's pure alchemical magic.
Just getting an image to appear is an amazing achievement.

Also consider that not everyone has access to an in home lab and darkroom with top notch equipment. It just doesn't exist anymore. So be happy when they get a faded image to appear from their cardboard enlarger and household cleaners chemistry. Say "ah, isn't that nice". Just remember to say "hey that would have been so much better if you used some fresh film".

 

[Jeff Bradford]

The only thing that's new is that the internet has given the newbs a lot more voice power. Thus, they have almost completely drowned out the article-writers.
The internet is new. Give it a while to attenuate and mellow with age.

 

[TheRook]

Every generation has its "NOOBS" - young novices not seeking out the wisdom of elders, but doing it their own way. It wasn't all that different 50 years ago.

 

[Arklatexian]

I'm just throwing this out here to see if others feel this way, too.

When I was young (and dinosaurs roamed the earth) this whole "interweb" thing did not exist. We had great photo magazines like the British Journal of Photography, Modern Photography and Popular Photography. And we had "gurus" that wrote monthly columns; folks like David Vestal and Cora Wright Kennedy, etc.

These folks and many others wrote monthly columns mostly detailing their own adventures in the darkroom. There were other mags and other writers but I noticed a trend, more and more folks writing to ask, not for advice, but rather for validation for whatever hair-brained half-cocked exposure or processing notion they had already conceived. If the columnist, based on "lo their many years doing something the right way" told the newcomer it won't work, the newbie would start an argument. Later in my timeline the columnists started suggesting an experimental method the newcomer could use to test his idea in the laboratory/darkroom and would again get ignored.

It seems to have got worse as things progressed (especially after Al Gore invented the Internet). Not so much on this forum which is well moderated and screwed down (in a good way) but groups on less moderated forums. It's been a downhill slide progressing from BBS's, Newsgroups, Chat rooms, Yahoo groups and now Facebook. And all the replies on such forums have equal weight, with only a casual read you never know if the responder is a 21st. Century version of Ansel Adams, Geoff Crawley, etc. or some "fauxtographer" that got a film camera just this week, loves shooting "redscale", Chardonnay (some of them process their film in wine) and long walks in the moonlight. And these folks are quite willing to squirt Canon AE-1's full of WD40, take apart Compur shutters for CLA's, and fix their own cameras.

I don't consider myself an expert but I've done a photographic thing or two in 50 years taking pictures and 40+ years developing my own stuff, I have a huge reference library which includes some heavy hitters which I won't bother to list here. I can do computers, math, and chemistry. And I can make Internet search engines "sing"; I did it for a living when I did computer tech support. So if someone asks and I don't know the answer I can refer them to someone or some published work that really knows how to do these things.

I guess what I'm saying is that these NOOBS aren't asking for advice, are not seeking the right way to do things, they are just bragging about their way of doing it and seeking validation. What's your take? I don't really know how to parse this as a poll, but if someone else would create one, I'll participate.

You are correct,of course, but this is nothing new. Sixty years ago I was in a camera club that was destroyed by two photographers who constantly argued about sharpness and definition in pictures. Both were correct to a degree but each wanted the other to validate his point of view. The rest of us realized that egos were involved, got fed up with it and went our separate ways, until later a group of professionals and advanced amateurs was formed and neither of these two very able photographers were ever invited to join. enough said......Regards!

 

[Arklatexian]

Every generation has its "NOOBS" - young novices not seeking out the wisdom of elders, but doing it their own way. It wasn't all that different 50 years ago.

Many years ago while working in a camera store, I had a young customer buy a Minolta Autocord with the idea of becoming a professional. When someone would suggest a way to use that camera he would protest that he wanted his pictures to be different so he did not want to hear anyone else's ideas. He was successful, as his photographs were, indeed, different. So different, in fact, that I don't think he ever sold one......Regards!

 

[pdeeh]

we must always respect and learn from our elders ...

 

[Terry Breedlove]

Well now maybe the problem is you. Maybe the young people are doing what young people have always done. Maybe what has changed is you old man.

 

[blockend]

50 years ago in Japan, Provoke magazine prompted a movement that took photography away from the requirements of advertising and promotion, towards a more straightforward and democratic way of seeing. Part of that trend was to get away from the slickness and the presentation values of white cube gallery spaces, and to show work in magazines and books. That does not mean images were badly printed - quite the contrary - but adherents had no requirement for the exposure and tonal norms or subject matter most photographers aspired to. The argument about what "good" photography means was ended half a century ago, but photographers are still anchored in ideas of technical excellence as the prerequisite to a quality photograph.

 

[cb1]

OP is being too critical. I also learned the "old ways" back in the 1980s. However, now that I have picked up the film again, I enjoy the "new breed". I get a kick out of all of the experimentation and the motivation to continue to do so.
Nothing like browsing the "Lomo" photo galleries and sensing all the fun they had while taking the pictures.

If it sells film, and companies continue to make film, I am all for it.

Now, where did I put that roll of 120 Lomography Turquoise film? I want to use it in my RB67......

 

[Julie McLeod]

I guess what I'm saying is that these NOOBS aren't asking for advice, are not seeking the right way to do things, they are just bragging about their way of doing it and seeking validation. What's your take?

I see some irony in the fact that you seem to be seeking validation for your opinion on others seeking validation.

 

[greg zinselmeier]

as to the . . . . "asking for validation" part. . . . . people who are working on ideas for the first time or very close to the first time , will always ask "is this good/bad/ugly" or pronounce with a grin " this is what I am doing""" . . . . I do not have a problem with that. working on ideas for the first time sometimes leaves us feeling a little insecure, its nice to have a community to look to, talk to, for support. It would be remiss of anyone to halt enthusiasm for photography because someone ( a noob) is tooting their own horn for a bit, or asking . . . . . quote , end quote " silly question" . we should be encouraging people who may be struggling with ideas.

 

[Jim Jones]

Even after 65+ years of using Leica, Nikon, and other quality cameras, I learn on forums like this one from the answers to questions that others ask. Of course the internet is good for those seeking attention. It may also replace the printing press as the greatest expansion of learning opportunities since the invention of language. Some of todays newbies may become the best photographers of decades to come. Young Edward Weston contributed articles and photographs to the journals of his time. Even now they are interesting reading if only to show his humble beginnings. Eventually he proved his true worth by showing, not telling.

 

[pdeeh]

I see some irony in the fact that you seem to be seeking validation for your opinion on others seeking validation.

exquisite

 

[Old-N-Feeble]

Even after 65+ years of using Leica, Nikon, and other quality cameras, I learn on forums like this one from the answers to questions that others ask. Of course the internet is good for those seeking attention. It may also replace the printing press as the greatest expansion of learning opportunities since the invention of language. Some of todays newbies may become the best photographers of decades to come. Young Edward Weston contributed articles and photographs to the journals of his time. Even now they are interesting reading if only to show his humble beginnings. Eventually he proved his true worth by showing, not telling.

I wonder if anyone has save the very first viable website as someone did the first important book ever printed, the Gutenberg Bible.