There are alos a lot of very proficient amateur photographers. I'm sure you would agree with that. Maybe part of the problem is that POLITENESS seems to have become a bit lost and selfishness seems to prevail amongst too many people.
There are a lot of wannabes in photography.
I'd bet that most studio portrait professional photographers got their start shooting weddings. I'd bet 25 years ago maybe 95%. Now with the proliferation of "moms with cameras" who started shooting kids, that the number has dropped to maybe 60-70%.
So back then if you wanted to be a professional photographer you started as an amateur shooting weddings. Hard work and a lot of cash flow. Taught you how to think and work fast and immersed you into photography in a real way.
Then hopefully you started taking some classes/seminars/workshops to learn your craft. Most did.
Some didn't.
I agree that most commercial product photographers went to school but I really doubt that very many of them started as wedding photographers. I think probably most of them did, as I did, made it a career decision not long out of high school. Talking it over with the parents trying to decide what college to go to and what to go for. I don't believe there are or were a significant number of school age kids doing wedding photography... maybe photographing for the school year book. If you poll a lot of commercial photographers most of them will tell you that they wouldn't do a wedding at gun point. The idea is that it is too much stress and too much craziness and not near enough money. Not to mention the post photography work. A commercial photographer likes to shoot and deliver the end result and move on. Then get irate if the image is reused without permission. What you see more is the wedding portrait photographer wishing he could land a commercial job or two.
I'd bet that most studio portrait professional photographers got their start shooting weddings. I'd bet 25 years ago maybe 95%. Now with the proliferation of "moms with cameras" who started shooting kids, that the number has dropped to maybe 60-70%.
So back then if you wanted to be a professional photographer you started as an amateur shooting weddings. Hard work and a lot of cash flow. Taught you how to think and work fast and immersed you into photography in a real way.
Then hopefully you started taking some classes/seminars/workshops to learn your craft. Most did.
Some didn't.
I agree that most commercial product photographers went to school but I really doubt that very many of them started as wedding photographers. I think probably most of them did, as I did, made it a career decision not long out of high school. Talking it over with the parents trying to decide what college to go to and what to go for. I don't believe there are or were a significant number of school age kids doing wedding photography... maybe photographing for the school year book. If you poll a lot of commercial photographers most of them will tell you that they wouldn't do a wedding at gun point. The idea is that it is too much stress and too much craziness and not near enough money. Not to mention the post photography work. A commercial photographer likes to shoot and deliver the end result and move on. Then get irate if the image is reused without permission. What you see more is the wedding portrait photographer wishing he could land a commercial job or two.
I think you misread what I said. Or I said it wrong.
My type, studio portrait types started in weddings. The type that went to photography schools like Brooks and came out as a commercial photographer DIDN"T do weddings and often got jobs working for commercial photographers.
I can't imagine trying to make a living with a camera. That would just take all the fun out of it. Good on you who can.
I can't imagine trying to make a living with a camera. That would just take all the fun out of it. Good on you who can.
Each to his own I suppose.... To me, enjoyment of hobby centers around being able to do something to my hearts content just because I want to do it. I don't need to satisfy anyone else, such as clients or an employer. What I do doesn't have to make sense financially or meet someone else's deadline, either.
I enjoy what I do for living but in a whole different context from a hobby. I'm glad you found your happy place though.
Exactly. And hobby photographers should not be pretending to be pros.
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Exactly. And hobby photographers should not be pretending to be pros.
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The difference between a professional and an amateur isn't the quality of work. A skilled amateur can produce work just as fine as a skilled professional when he wants to.
The professional must produce that work when he doesn't want to.
While this may be true of some photography, portrait photography actually requires some level of training and talent as probably does other disciplines of photography. And not that there aren't portrait photographers that suck, and just take snapshots but "posing" and lighting are learned skills that are part of a craft.
But I agree that a professional does have to produce consistently and on demand.
You know..i've often wondered if that is how the artists commissioned and painting portraits for their patrons felt back in the day. In reflection, weren't they doing all their 'photoshopping' up front? Were they not interpreting the scene for what was important, composition, context, and conveyance. And then along came the photographer, 'instantly' able to record a plain 'ol image as it actually was. ...ugh...who would want THAT? Where is the art in that? Anyway, I've often thought of what that encounter must have seemed to the participants of the day...and here we are again I suppose. Anyway, just my 2 cents. Obviously, I consider photography to be very much indeed - art
In some ways you a preaching to a dead horse Blansky. If you consider PS to be no different than a wet darkroom, then you are saying what is right for you in particular. And if someone says in their personal and sometimes professional experience that they do not see them as being the same, then they are right too.
In the other thread, it was clearly pointed out that in terms of high dollar, high end photography purchased as art, darkroom is pulling away nicely compared to Lightroom works, with the caveat of the image having equal talent behind the lens, yet this seems to get beaten away, excuse after excuse given to flat out ignore that the customer in this genre often does care what he or she is spending his money on.
For me it is a simple equation of what do I want to spend my life doing, a clear marketing advantage and the fact that unlike a computer, I can not order clothes on my enlarger, watch a movie on my paint brush or clone out an ex-girlfriend with my Guild six string guitar.
But I understand where you are coming from, in terms of most of my art photography, I am not entirely trying to keep it real even though I use a strong photojournalistic ethic, I am just trying to avoid the factory of democratization that is clearly devaluing everything creative in its path...
The computer.
Wedding photographers hate people like you.
Imagine any other profession, and somebody showed up and was doing what the pro was hired to do, and undercutting their work.
Imagine going to a doctor and while the doctor was consulting you, the friend that came along was offering advice and was diagnosing you.
Photographers are the only profession where amateurs are able to be present and inject themselves in some way.
People can argue this stuff until the cows come home
You and the last poster keep missing the point. It's not the competition, it's the interference while working.I think this pro and amateur argument exists on every field in pretty much the same fashion.
Professional construction contractor vs handy-man vs DIYer
Seasoned IT professional vs college/high school kid who are into computers
Wedding photographer vs weekend wonders vs friend with a camera
Medical doctors vs patient who read up on internet postings/sites
I used to tell junior people at my work (IT) the difference between pro and amateur is that pros know what NOT to do - that knows the limitation of his/her own skills where as inexperienced goes boldly into unknown territory (and often do so unknowingly) and hurt themselves or client.
Now a days, everybody is claiming titles in unregulated fields. Expectation seems to be lower too. Kind of scary me thinks...
Couldn't agree more.I can't imagine trying to make a living with a camera. That would just take all the fun out of it. Good on you who can.
...But I agree that a professional does have to produce consistently and on demand.
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