Photoflo contamination. What exactly is the issue?

[snusmumriken]

I've seen quite a number of posts on this forum implying that Photoflo/wetting agent residues left in developing tanks are a problem. What exactly is the issue? Nowadays I use Tetenal Mirasol rather than Kodak Photoflo, but through the last 40 years or so I have used several different brands of wetting agent including (originally and for many years) washing-up liquid. I rinse my tank after use, but not assiduously. I have never noticed any problem that I could ascribe to wetting agent residue. Instinctively, I would have thought that something that breaks down surface tension is likely to be beneficial rather than otherwise, but I'm probably wrong. Please enlighten me.

 

[pentaxuser]

Jonathan , it tends to be blamed for leaving stickiness on the reels thus inhibiting the loading of film and on balance most seem to favour using wetting agent when the film has been taken off the reel but others report no problem whatsoever in using wetting agent in the tank

I tend to take my film off the reel and place it into 600ml of wetting agent but this is largely driven by habit of manually winding and unwinding the film in wetting agent for a minute in an old plastic ice cream container

One day I am going to leave the film on the reel and pour wetting agent into the tank to see what effect it has on loading the next film.

As you say, I wonder if the drop of wetting agent in say 250-300 or 500 ml of water(120 film) in the tank can have enough of an effect on making the plastic reel sticky , especially if the reel gets a wash in plain water before being dried and put away until next time

Clearly for it to have an adverse effect on the plastic that is noticeable there must be a scientific reason why a 1+200 dilution of wetting agent on a plastic reel for a minute is enough to make it sticky in a way that cannot be undone by a quick rinse in plain water at the end

pentaxuser

 

[GRHazelton]

I've never had a problem with sticky reels. I do occasionally run the reels through our dishwasher - top rack of course - and perhaps that has prevented any problem.

 

[Sirius Glass]

I've seen quite a number of posts on this forum implying that Photoflo/wetting agent residues left in developing tanks are a problem. What exactly is the issue? Nowadays I use Tetenal Mirasol rather than Kodak Photoflo, but through the last 40 years or so I have used several different brands of wetting agent including (originally and for many years) washing-up liquid. I rinse my tank after use, but not assiduously. I have never noticed any problem that I could ascribe to wetting agent residue. Instinctively, I would have thought that something that breaks down surface tension is likely to be beneficial rather than otherwise, but I'm probably wrong. Please enlighten me

The number one problem is people not following directions and just pouring whatever amount in the tank. So first follow the instructions and mix exactly as specified and later change if and only if experience shows a necessity. Next PhotoFlo can make reels sticky so following the instructs of Jobo and others, after washing the film, remove the film from the reel and put it in another container with the PhotoFlo mixture. That keeps the reels clean and avoid many pages of posts. Simple.

 

[JerseyDoug]

The problem I found with Photo-Flo in Paterson plastic reels was not sticky plastic but rather that the little metal ball bearings that provide the ratchet action no longer rolled easily back and forth in their little track. I have gone back from metal reels and tanks for 120 to AP/Samigon plastic reels in Paterson tanks but with no wetting agent and no problems.

 

[Sirius Glass]

The problem I found with Photo-Flo in Paterson plastic reels was not sticky plastic but rather that the little metal ball bearings that provide the ratchet action no longer rolled easily back and forth in their little track. I have gone back from metal reels and tanks for 120 to AP/Samigon plastic reels in Paterson tanks but with no wetting agent and no problems.

So see post #4 and learn how to avoid the problem of the ball or balls getting sticky.

 

[JerseyDoug]

So see post #4 and learn how to avoid the problem of the ball or balls getting sticky.

I've moved on from using wetting agents altogether. I hang the film vertically in the shower stall and give it one gentle downward wipe with a folded over Kimwipe wiper. No water spots, no streaks, no dust - and no scratches - and it dries very quickly.

CAUTION - Do not try this without testing it first with negatives you don't care about. I have seen no scratches with the films and chemistry I use. Your experience may differ.

 

[Sirius Glass]

I've moved on from using wetting agents altogether. I hang the film vertically in the shower stall and give it one gentle downward wipe with a folded over Kimwipe wiper. No water spots, no streaks, no dust - and no scratches - and it dries very quickly.

CAUTION - Do not try this without testing it first with negatives you don't care about. I have seen no scratches with the films and chemistry I use. Your experience may differ.

Depending on your water and your practices, you may not need a surfactant such as PhotoFlo.

 

[Maris]

I use PhotoFlo at rates of 1+1000 or 1+2000; just enough to get a stable foam. The nominal concentration 1+200 is , I reckon, waaaay too much. After the film is hung up I go back to the reels and agitate them vigorously on the centre post up and down in the developing tank full of fresh water. This is repeated until absolutely no foam forms in the tank or on the reels. The transient formation of foam is a very sensitive indicator of the presence of PhotoFlo even down to the parts per million level.

 

[eli griggs]

The problem I found with Photo-Flo in Paterson plastic reels was not sticky plastic but rather that the little metal ball bearings that provide the ratchet action no longer rolled easily back and forth in their little track. I have gone back from metal reels and tanks for 120 to AP/Samigon plastic reels in Paterson tanks but with no wetting agent and no problems.

That's the issue I had when I started using Paterson tanks and reels.

The metal ball would be stuck so the film does no load properly, with the side to side action required and would sometimes cause the easy action to become the bain of your darkroom life.


Even well washed reels would cause difficult windinds-on, if even a tiny bit wet, slots and balls together.


I returned to mostly steel tanks and reels for developing, using the Paterson kit on occasion.


Use Hot TAP WATER for washing up and life will once again center itself in the darkroom, IMO

 

[eli griggs]

By the way, the balls on these can and does corrode if no dried or left in H2O solutions.

 

[AgX]

To me this is an urban myth triggered even by the industry:

-) wetting agent is part of some commercial developers

-) wetting agent is watersoluable and it is does not harden after drying (unlike a varnish)

-) working strength final rinse containing wetting agent remaining on the reels and the tank after the process can be rinsed off with plain water

-) should that cleaning be omitted, residue of working strength final rinse containing wetting agent is minimal compared to a bath volume, dilution thus will be by magnitudes


Trouble only would come into existance if any the additional amount of wetting agent would cause foaming. Howerver there has been waring of such already without any final rinse contamination.
And manufacturers of dedicated develors for high-resolution films stated that wetting agent would be detrimental to their process.


In the past Jobo explicetely advised to add wetting agent concentrate to the processing tank with last washing bath with the spiral with film in it.
(Well, Jobo gave contrary advices to an extent, that likely any shool of procedures could be pleased...)

 

[pentaxuser]

So the problem with wetting agent is only with Paterson's steel balls so Jobo and Durst reels which do not use balls are OK?

Or does the stickiness affect the plastic even at a ratio of 1 ml of wetting agent to 200ml of water and the Pateron balls simply give you an additional problem ?

If it does can it be nullified by a quick rinse in plain water?

Thanks


pentaxuser

 

[Moose22]

I use PhotoFlo at rates of 1+1000 or 1+2000; just enough to get a stable foam. The nominal concentration 1+200 is , I reckon, waaaay too much.

Same. Except I might use even less.

I think it's like 20 drops to a ml, I tend to use just a few drops per roll. A liter of rinse water for 3 reels is going to get as few as 6 or 8 drops from a pipette, maybe one or two more, but I don't go more than 10 unless I squeeze the bulb too hard by mistake.

I'm using crappy disposable pipettes, so I don't know that they're exactly 20 drops per mil, but close enough. So I use less than half a ml for a liter of rinse. It's enough to make a little foam.

It does make a difference, once I hit 3 drops per reel in the small tank I started getting clean negatives, and using more didn't make it better -- what works, works. So 1+2000 feels about right to me, at least with my water and my regimen.

 

[Brendan Quirk]

My experience:

1. Photoflo has gradually caused a sticky build-up on the Patterson reels.
2. This build-up has not yet caused any loading issues.
3. Hot water can reduce the sticky build-up.
4. I have been unhappy with streaks and water spots DESPITE distilled water rinses BEFORE the Photoflo, and diluting the Photoflo in distilled water (per specification).
5. I have seen foam and what might be called "scum" in the Photoflo/distilled water solution.
6. I have experimented recently with NO PHOTOFLO (this despite 50 years of use); just distilled water rinses at the end, and - -
7. NO water marks, spots , etc! This for about six rolls so far.

If this continues, despite my aversion to processing controversies, I will trumpet the TRUTH (I hope this is amusing... ) far and wide!

 

[gone]

I've never had sticky reels. Mine got a hard build up that made spooling the film less than fun. You can prevent that by taking a tooth brush w/ some dish soap on it and giving the reels a good scrub after you develop film.

Honestly, it only takes 30 seconds a reel. FWIW, photoflo works better for me than the bargain priced liquid Arista wetting agent. You figure out a way to make both work after a while though, too much can be as bad as none.

 

[cmacd123]

My appoch, using mostly JOBO reels is to just dump the reel in water after hanging up the film. then leaving the reel out to dry the next day. the soak is suficient to prevent any buildup.

I alos find that a half capful in a liter of water is suficient to keep drying marks at bay.

 

[MattKing]

A surfactant works for me.
Photo-flo in my case, used this way: https://www.photrio.com/forum/resources/making-and-using-a-kodak-photo-flo-stock-solution.396/
Even with soft water, if I don't use Photo-flo, I get beading sometimes that dries unevenly.

 

[snusmumriken]

I’m intrigued but also baffled. I live/have mostly lived in a hard water area, where a wetting agent definitely helps avoid drying marks. But I have used the same three Paterson reels for the past 40+ years and have had zero trouble with the little balls. Apart from mixing exactly as prescribed, I use the stuff recklessly: I add the wetting agent to the final (distilled water) in the tank, with the reel and film in place, and twirl the reel to and fro a bit. After removing the film to dry, I sluice the tank and reel under the cold water tap and set them aside to drain. The only loading difficulty I have ever had was caused by taking the film straight from the camera, so it still had a reverse curl.

Well, I’m not complaining. Evidently there are more niggly little variables out there than I would have suspected. Thanks to all for de-mystifying the subject.