Photo System Engineering II, B&W negative films

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Hologram

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Yes exactly – with the difference though that Carey Lea formed his colloidal silver layers by direct silver nitrate reduction.

By the way, I noticed that many patents dealing with the making of “regular” silver halide emulsions, mention the addition of colloidal silver or a small part of Lippmann emulsion.
 

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PE, Hologram,

When this Lippmann thing started, I thought everything was said and clear (sic), but amazingly every post reveals new aspects!
 
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Yes exactly – with the difference though that Carey Lea formed his colloidal silver layers by direct silver nitrate reduction.

By the way, I noticed that many patents dealing with the making of “regular” silver halide emulsions, mention the addition of colloidal silver or a small part of Lippmann emulsion.


I'm not quite sure I follow this. I can say that a "regular" emulsion often adds silver iodide crystals as one step. This must be done carefully though.

PE
 

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Here are some excerpts from a couple of patents:

US 6,248,507:
To facilitate Ostwald ripening it is contemplated to employ fine grain silver iodide emulsions having a mean grain size of less than 0.1 micrometer. The small sizes of the silver iodide grains are chosen to maximize available grain surface area per unit volume and to improve the distribution of the silver iodide at the time emulsions are blended. In a preferred form the silver iodide grain emulsion is a Lippmann emulsion. Lippmann emulsions with mean grain sizes down to about 30 angstroms have been reported, although the typical mean grain size of Lippmann emulsions is about 0.05 micrometer. While the iodochloride prior art referenced above typically states that any iodide ion source may be used in the preparation thereof, it is a critical feature of the invention that fine silver iodide grains be used as the iodide source for~the preparation of the region of the grains containing a maximum iodide concentration.

US 4,082,553:
Nicholas et al points out that iodide-free Lippmann emulsions have been used as overcoats to inhibit release of iodide to the developer solution. Nicholas et al notes, however, that these Lippmann emulsions in turn produce disadvantages by silver plating out on transport rollers during processing. To obviate this, Nicholas et al teaches the coating of the Lippmann emulsion layer with a silver precipitating agent, such as metal sulfides, selenides, polysulfides and polyselenides, thiourea; heavy metals and heavy metal salts; fogged silver halide and Carey Lea silver.

US 6,472,137:
In another preferred embodiment addition of iodide to emulsion grains rich in silver bromide is performed by adding fine preformed grains of silver iodide, whether or not including bromide and/or chloride in minor amounts, said grains having a grain diameter of not more than 100 nm, and more preferably, not more than 50 nm. Such fine grains are so-called "Lippmann" emulsions. Addition of iodide making use from such fine grains rich in silver iodide has been described for the preparation of {111} tabular grains in JP-A's 04-251241 and 08-029904 and in EP-A's 0 662 632 and 0 658 805, wherein an outermost phase rich in silver iodide has been added to {111} tabular grains rich in silver bromide (optionally comprising up to less than 10 mole % of silver chloride). Addition of said fine AgI-Lippmann emulsions to the surface of the silver halide crystals in order to get a global iodide content of less than 1 mole % in the grain may advantageously proceed as disclosed in EP-A 0 475 191, wherein an excellent speed/fog ratio and a high covering power are attained.


US 5,879,873:
A conventional growth step for the precipitation of high bromide grains with {100} crystal faces can then be effected, but with vAg preferably maintained in the range of from 150 to 220 mV to minimize thickening of the tabular grains. Typically growth is achieved by the addition of jets, at a constant or accelerated flow rate, of silver nitrate and alkaline metal halides or, again, a fine-grain emulsion of the Lippmann type.


US 6,518,009:
A method of imaging employing sensitized high chloride silver halide emulsions which exhibit improved speed and high intensity reciprocity performance for use with short duration, high intensity exposure optical and digital exposure systems. The method comprising providing a photographic element comprising at least one high chloride silver halide emulsion layer, exposing said element utilizing a high intensity actinic radiation exposure for an exposure time of less than 1/100 second, and developing said element to produce a photographic image, wherein the high chloride silver halide emulsion layer is comprised of silver halide emulsion grains containing at least 90 mole percent chloride, based on silver, obtained by providing a high chloride host emulsion, bringing a Lippmann emulsion comprising primarily fine silver bromide grains doped with iridium into contact with said high chloride host emulsion, and subsequently chemically sensitizing the high chloride emulsion.
 
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Yes, this is what I referred to in my post above yours.

After the nuclei are formed in the initial silver addition to halide, the run is stopped and held. Then AgI or KI may be added as described in these patents. Then the emulsion is diluted to the right level of gelatin and halide concentration for the rest of the run to continue.

PE
 

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Yes, that is the case for most of the above patents. Thanks, PE.

US 6,518,009 (Mydlarz et al., High intensity exposure photographic imaging method emplying iridium doped high chloride emulsion, Kodak) describes the use of an iridium doped AgBr Lippmann emulsion - to prevent HIRF, I assume.

... wherein the high chloride silver halide emulsion layer is comprised of silver halide emulsion grains containing at least 90 mole percent chloride, based on silver, obtained by providing a high chloride host emulsion, bringing a Lippmann emulsion comprising primarily fine silver bromide grains doped with iridium into contact with said high chloride host emulsion, and subsequently chemically sensitizing the high chloride emulsion.
 
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Yes, this is exactly the case. Iridium in tiny quantities is also added at about 10^6 moles / mole of silver to control reciprocity, and this is why most modern films have better reciprocity than older films. Same goes with paper.

I know Jerzy and am familiar with his work. I am familiar, in general, with the emulsions you have noted in his patent.

PE
 

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Looks like an interesting approach. Thanks again.
 

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I have even seen a formula where a few nano-mol Iridium per mol Silver had been used. That is what I find so intriguing: it reminds me more of homeopathy than that chemistry I had at school.

But this also hints at the cleanliness there has to be at industrial emulsion-making.
 
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Oh, I just found an error in my post above. That is 10^-6 moles of Iridium / mole of silver. Aaaak. Sorry about that error. Thanks for the catch.

I should also have added to that post, now that I see it again, that the Iridium must be made up in a special solution to prevent decomposition, and that addition must be at an optimum time during the run of silver. This time is often determined by trial and error and then running comparative reciprocity tests.

PE
 

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...,but two layers often act as if they have a huge partially reflective mirror between them.


PE,

Assuming that any reflection issues inbetween layers are due to surface tension, I further assume that coating those layers simultaneously in contrast to coating them in several runs would yield different effects. Actually, I expect simultaneously coated layers of identical gelatines (or rather RI) not to show any interface reflection at all.
 
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AFAIK, coating at one time and coating in multiple passes in a machine causes no change in interlayer reflections or refractions. The effect is not related to surface tension. It is more like placing two sheets of flat glass in contact and you can tell this has been done as you can see it.

In lenses, a similar effect is when the lens components are assembled but require coating on each element to remove these effects. The acutance dye in film serves a similar purpose.

PE
 

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AFAIK, coating at one time and coating in multiple passes in a machine causes no change in interlayer reflections or refractions. The effect is not related to surface tension. It is more like placing two sheets of flat glass in contact and you can tell this has been done as you can see it.
PE

I agree. Each layer being in close contact with the layer on which it has been coated (that is, there is no air interface between them!), you will only get reflections when the refractive index difference from one layer to another becomes large. However, this is highly unlikely if the same kind of gelatin and silver concentrations have been used in all layers.
 

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That was what I tried to hint at. I assume gelatine gets anistropic at/towards the tiny interface with another medium.

The reason for this I only can speculate on. It could be mechanical tension. Though I expect this would not be established in case of wet/wet coating of similar gelatine solutions.
However, even in this case there would be an interface. In the form of a layer of wetting substances.
 
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There is always an interface whether the layers are singly coated or coated in multiples at one time. There are tiny refractive index changes due to the chemicals present in the layers due to the fact that layers differ in content. The difference within the layer itself is substantial.

Think of the lens analogy. You have to coat lenses even though you may use the same glass in every element. It is the interface that counts even if there is no air there.

PE
 

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That was what I tried to hint at. I assume gelatine gets anistropic at/towards the tiny interface with another medium.
In the context of holography there has been some research on polarization issues related to gelatin. Under certain
circumstances one might get fairly large differences between p and s-polarization.
Having said that, refractive index remains the key parameter regarding internal reflections. The degree of internal reflection may also depend on wavelength...

The reason for this I only can speculate on. It could be mechanical tension. Though I expect this would not be established in case of wet/wet coating of similar gelatine solutions.

Maybe processing (development-fixing) involves significant refractive index changes. Has there ever been research on this subject?

However, even in this case there would be an interface. In the form of a layer of wetting substances.

I guess the wetting substances (being essentially hydrophilic) would get fully absorbed by the gelatin-water layer to be coated on top of it.
 

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There is always an interface whether the layers are singly coated or coated in multiples at one time. There are tiny refractive index changes due to the chemicals present in the layers due to the fact that layers differ in content. The difference within the layer itself is substantial.

If that difference is so high, what about the explanation, that gelatin hardening might play an important role?


Think of the lens analogy. You have to coat lenses even though you may use the same glass in every element. It is the interface that counts even if there is no air there.


Far from being particularly knowledgeable about optics I assume that anti-reflection coatings only make sense when put at the air-glass interface.
 

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I guess the wetting substances (being essentially hydrophilic) would get fully absorbed by the gelatin-water layer to be coated on top of it.


If there are wetting agents in both layers, what I assume, and if they are of that typical kind we know (a hydrophile next to a lipophile part), what I assume too, the hydrophile parts would be incorporated in both layers with the lipophile parts sticking out.
Thus there not only would be an inhomogenity in both layers due the gathering of these wetting agents to the interface, but even even a layer made out of (or at least characterized by) those lipophile elements.

Am I wrong?
 
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Just about entirely right.

The wetting agents can be anionic, cationic or neutral. TX-100 is neutral and is a polyoxy compound, TX-200 is basically di-nonyl napthalene sulfonic acid or the like, and the positive charged surfactant (wetting agent) is usually a quaternary ammonium salt. These latter are not often used in photo product manufacture.

They are used at such a tiny concentration during coating that they would be hard to detect, but after drydown, the concentration has the effect of going up. Often, different surfactants are used in adjacent layers.

PE
 

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Thus

-) there are inhomogenities at the interface between layers

-) they could be explained by those wetting agents

?????
 
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There are no homogenieties at the interface.

Problems caused by wetting agents might include changes in refractive index or changes in silver type or grain size or coupler (in color), or combinations.

As I said, you have everything just about right.

In the photos on the left there is a 10 layer color film coated at high speed in one pass. The irregularities in the layers are due to the microtoming and mounting. You can see that there are no intermixed layers in the processed sample on the right. (used with the permission of Bruce Kahn) I have seen others without the 'ripple' but I have none of those. I will look and see if I can find some. The ripple, if real, would mess up the image really badly, so I hope you can understand that this is an artifact.

In the photo on the right, is a 5 layer structure coated one pass at a time. This is a dye bleach (Ilfocolor) prototype I coated and again you can see no interlayer mixing.

PE
 

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Hologram

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There are no homogenieties at the interface.
Problems caused by wetting agents might include changes in refractive index or changes in silver type or grain size or coupler (in color), or combinations.

...or increased/decreased silver halide concentrations. The Bruce Kahn photo (Cross Section of EXR 5296, “before processing”) - thanks for posting! - seems to suggest uneven silver distribution within a single layer. The bottom of each layer may have a considerably higher amounts of AgX than the upper regions. I wonder if this is always the case or relates to surfactants, AgX concentrations of the coating solutions.
So if high AgX regions border on low AgX regions, it might explain the refractive index difference and hence the internal reflections.
 
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Well, first it should read "Inhomogenieties at the interface". The interface is supposed to be smooth except where distorted by the microtoming process.

I think you have misunderstood the Kahn photomicrograph. This is a 10 layer structure. What you interpret as silver being unevenly distributed is two layers as follows /overcoat/fast yellow/slow yellow/CLS layer/fast magenta/slow magenta/interlayer/fast cyan/slow cyan/AH/support.

The fast layers are coarse grained and the slow layers are finer grained. That is what you see as inhomogeneity and that is what can be seen by the light as changing the nature of the layers.

PE
 

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Well, with "inhomogenties at the interface" I put it quite badly.

I wanted to say that across a right angle section of a layer I expect a difference in RI between the interfaces and the rest of the layer.
Or to put it differently, I expect an inhomogenity concerning the RI with a change taking place at the interfaces.
 
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