Photo Printing Paper for enlarging and not Inkjet........

[chuckroast]

I have always been a little puzzled as to why super good, super popular products disappear and never seem to reappear. Yeah, sure, they might come back into production by name only and are not the same quality as the original. Or the brand name has been purchased and now the company is trying to pass of junk relying on the "brand name" to sell it. It sure seems that if Oriental Seagull was that good of a paper, and it was that good, then why isn't some manufacture picking up on it? Same for older Agfa, Kodak and Forte papers. If folks are willing to pay top dollar for some films then I'm sure they would do the same for a paper with a great Dmax and heavy silver content.
The problem that enlarging papers suffer, compared to the B&W films produced today, is that folks can used B&W film to produce Inkjet or digital prints. That means there is more of a market for B&W film than there is for a really top notch B&W printing paper. Or any printing paper for that matter. The lower amount of replies to this thread itself bares this out. The only solution to this problem is for all of us here to break our darkroom equipment out of storage and get going on some "REAL" printing. I'm not going to hold my breath!

Because the manufacturing facilities are often old and not cost effective to fix up

 

[John Wiegerink]

Because the manufacturing facilities are often old and not cost effective to fix up

That might be the case for film, but I don't buy it for paper manufacturing and coating. Also, why can't another coating facility coat an emulsion exactly like Forte or Oriental had onto a good quality paper. I can't believe that paper emulsions were as tricky to make as film emulsions since your are not enlarging the paper, only the film negative. Well, I'm not going to lose any sleep over it and will just use what's out there and be happy I, or we, stilll have that.

 

[MattKing]

At the end, Kodak was losing so much money on their black and white printing papers that their only choice was to shut down their production and leave that business.
So much of the markets for things like this - that require excellent consistency and repeatability, as well as high quality and reasonable price - is dependent on volume. The products disappeared, because they didn't sell enough of them to do so profitably, at a price that people were willing to pay.
And when the market shrinks, most profitable production lines can't be scaled back, without quality and/or price suffering, which in turn shrinks the market further.

 

[koraks]

I have always been a little puzzled as to why super good, super popular products disappear

Because "super popular" often means "me and a couple other guys really, really like this", but there's no sizeable market and no opportunity for a healthy margin to be made. Because otherwise, the product of course would not disappear. Fondness for something in a small group of people just doesn't make a manufacturer any money.

 

[Don_ih]

why can't another coating facility coat an emulsion exactly like Forte or Oriental had onto a good quality paper. I can't believe that paper emulsions were as tricky to make as film emulsions since your are not enlarging the paper, only the film negative.

Adox managed to reproduce the emulsion of Forte Polywarmtone but has yet to get it coated on paper. It's available as a liquid emulsion. Not sure why they haven't made a paper.

The market for enlarging paper - I'm amazed it's big enough to support the current variety of paper. I think more people may be getting into making enlargements (there are fairly frequent posts on here from people getting their first enlarger), but a lot of people are also packing up their darkrooms.

 

[koraks]

Not sure why they haven't made a paper.

I suspect it's because of the same reason why they've not coated MCC and MCP in a long time: the production economics would result in a retail price that's so high that Adox believe there won't be sufficient demand. An added complication going by old reports when they still actively updated the general public on the Polywarmtone project is that there was some production engineering involved in going from a working emulsion to an actually production-ready product.

 

[Don_ih]

Well, at least they released something. Liquid emulsion is a special thing all on its own - it has its uses.

 

[John Wiegerink]

I think another issue with producing a really, really good paper or one that emulates the best papers from the past, is aging or expiration. You can only keep these papers in stock and on the shelf if they are fresh. Sure, you can sell expired paper just like you can expired film, but you then lose most of your profit. I think the only way we would see papers like Seagull, MCC, Forte and others is if Foma or Ilford took the paper/emulsion formula and did limited runs so people could stock up on there favorite paper. Just like it's done with the Ilford ULF run. Of course we know that that won't happen since more and more people are digital printing film negatives instead of spending quality time with their dusty, old enlarger. May your enlarger R.I.P..

 

[koraks]

I think the only way we would see papers like Seagull, MCC, Forte and others is if Foma or Ilford took the paper/emulsion formula and did limited runs so people could stock up on there favorite paper.

That's an interesting idea; sadly, Adox rejected it earlier when it was proposed them for their papers. The suggestion has been made by several people over the years to finance a production run for a paper by pre-orders from users, but Adox' argument was that they should invest in their own production and they wouldn't want to push this investment onto their customers in advance. Anyone can make from that decision what they will, but either way, it seems that they just don't want to go there.

 

[John Wiegerink]

That's an interesting idea; sadly, Adox rejected it earlier when it was proposed them for their papers. The suggestion has been made by several people over the years to finance a production run for a paper by pre-orders from users, but Adox' argument was that they should invest in their own production and they wouldn't want to push this investment onto their customers in advance. Anyone can make from that decision what they will, but either way, it seems that they just don't want to go the

You are so right and that's too bad, but sometimes the truth is hard for me to swallow. I'd love to think there was a market for a really high class paper like there is for really high class cars, but there's not. We'll just have to get by with the good papers of today and forget the really good papers of the past.

 

[koraks]

I understand the sentiment; I'd say, cherish the good memories of the past, enjoy what you have today. The past is only dead when we forget it. Until that time, it can haunt or comfort us, whichever we choose.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

When I was doing a lot of gelatin silver (stopped in 2009 and I've only just restarted), my main papers were Forte Polygrade V, Oriental VC, and Ilford MGIV. I loved Polygrade.
A couple months ago, I picked up a 100 sheet box of 8x10 box Ilford MG RC. The price nearly killed me!
After I get that camera kit I've been after for a while...which I still haven't been talked out of... I'll be saving up for a 16x10 box of something...I would like it to be fibre based (back in the day, that is all I ever used). Not sure what my options are up here in Canada though. Easy to get is Ilford.

 

[Peter Schrager]

I have always been a little puzzled as to why super good, super popular products disappear and never seem to reappear. Yeah, sure, they might come back into production by name only and are not the same quality as the original. Or the brand name has been purchased and now the company is trying to pass of junk relying on the "brand name" to sell it. It sure seems that if Oriental Seagull was that good of a paper, and it was that good, then why isn't some manufacture picking up on it? Same for older Agfa, Kodak and Forte papers. If folks are willing to pay top dollar for some films then I'm sure they would do the same for a paper with a great Dmax and heavy silver content.
The problem that enlarging papers suffer, compared to the B&W films produced today, is that folks can used B&W film to produce Inkjet or digital prints. That means there is more of a market for B&W film than there is for a really top notch B&W printing paper. Or any printing paper for that matter. The lower amount of replies to this thread itself bares this out. The only solution to this problem is for all of us here to break our darkroom equipment out of storage and get going on some "REAL" printing. I'm not going

Kodak stopped making paper virtually overnight and personally their paper sucked
Forte went out because the real estate was more valuable than the business
Let's support ilford foma and the Italians with our dollars or they will be gone too.

 

[Loren Sattler]

So, are you finding the Foma papers slightly on the warm side too or is it just me?

John, I use both Foma and Ilford papers....mostly RC with either Dektol or LPD. I agree, the Foma papers (like 311 glossy RC) are slightly warm compared to Ilford.
Another feature with Foma is I need to expose prints with higher contrast because they soften up about 1/2 a grade when drying. I find the Pearl surface RC worse than the Glossy surface in this regard.....wondering if others have the same experience?

 

[GregY]

When I was doing a lot of gelatin silver (stopped in 2009 and I've only just restarted), my main papers were Forte Polygrade V, Oriental VC, and Ilford MGIV. I loved Polygrade.
A couple months ago, I picked up a 100 sheet box of 8x10 box Ilford MG RC. The price nearly killed me!
After I get that camera kit I've been after for a while...which I still haven't been talked out of... I'll be saving up for a 16x10 box of something...I would like it to be fibre based (back in the day, that is all I ever used). Not sure what my options are up here in Canada though. Easy to get is Ilford.

Andrew, I messaged the distributor for Foma in Canada. They're not doing anything in regard to the US tariff /elbows up situation. So while they're bringing in film, they have not brought in any additional paper. So we're pretty much only left w Ilford.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Ilford it is then. Thanks @GregY

 

[Don_ih]

the distributor for Foma in Canada

Judging from how well they have done, Foma should have a different distributor in Canada.

 

[pentaxuser]

I think more people may be getting into making enlargements (there are fairly frequent posts on here from people getting their first enlarger), but a lot of people are also packing up their darkrooms.

You may be right but given what I have seen on Photrio, few if any newcomers are other than "hybriders"

I'd be amazed if as many here are still darkroom users as was the case when I joined 20 years ago

pentaxuser

 

[John Wiegerink]

You may be right but given what I have seen on Photrio, few if any newcomers are other than "hybriders"

I'd be amazed if as many here are still darkroom users as was the case when I joined 20 years ago

pentaxuser

Yes, many of the "old timers" here half converted to digitizing and most newcomers wouldn't know an enlarger from a washing machine until they went to put there dirty clothes in it. There will be NO really good new papers for this reason.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Kodak had so many irons in the fire that it was like a corporate octopus which had lost track of how many arms it had. They had tons of surplus money to waste on all kinds of products back when Elite paper was briefly made; but for that same reason they were half-hearted about many of their experimental ventures, whereas a company like Oriental with their Seagull paper was doomed if they bungled that one line, and had to commit to it.

Reviving this or that coveted paper from days of yore isn't as simple as hypothetically replicating the emulsion formula, if even that can be gotten ahold of. You'd also have to revive or reinvent the skilled production line staff that went with that, and produce the original paper base again, etc etc.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Converting to digitizing is about as appealing to me as converting to false teeth. I'd like to avoid both as long as possible. Sorry to hear that so many of the younger generation were born without teeth, so to speak.

 

[GregY]

Judging from how well they have done, Foma should have a different distributor in Canada.

Exactly....they're only bringing papers in if dealers order it..... they have no skin in the game.

 

[chuckroast]

Converting to digitizing is about as appealing to me as converting to false teeth. I'd like to avoid both as long as possible. Sorry to hear that so many of the younger generation were born without teeth, so to speak.

Preach it...

 

[GregY]

Converting to digitizing is about as appealing to me as converting to false teeth. I'd like to avoid both as long as possible. Sorry to hear that so many of the younger generation were born without teeth, so to speak.