Photo business question - fire the client?

[Xmas]

You need repeat customers and customer recommendations to survive today.

Even unreasonable ones.

Skin like a turtle...

 

[StoneNYC]

The working arrangement for the moment (which still goes out the window without signed contract and deposit) is that I will work with 2 models, the other photographer will work with 2 other models. This ought to be good enough to keep us from stepping on each others' toes. But I'm still skeptical of the ability of one of us or both of us to get the volume of shots completed in the time the client thinks they'll be completed - he wants to get the shoot done in 6 hours, photographing 75 items each (150 items total).

I just don't get why him hiring a second out photographer is helping here... If you agreed that you could get the 150 pieces done on your own in 6 hours, why throw a monkey wrench into the gears? Unless he only hired you for 75 of them?

Anyway good luck! This sounds like a challenge. Maybe I should come along too

 

[TheFlyingCamera]

I just don't get why him hiring a second out photographer is helping here... If you agreed that you could get the 150 pieces done on your own in 6 hours, why throw a monkey wrench into the gears? Unless he only hired you for 75 of them?

Anyway good luck! This sounds like a challenge. Maybe I should come along too

Stone-

In the original discussion, he did not mention how many pieces he needed shot, but I knew it was a significant quantity. I never quoted 6 hours - in fact, I quoted 2 days. He rented a space that is appropriate for the look he wants for the background. The space was available for 6 hours, and that is all he can afford to pay rent for. All of which he informed me of AFTER the fact.

 

[Xmas]

an average of less than 5 Mins an item.

 

[jovo]

Stone-

In the original discussion, he did not mention how many pieces he needed shot, but I knew it was a significant quantity. I never quoted 6 hours - in fact, I quoted 2 days. He rented a space that is appropriate for the look he wants for the background. The space was available for 6 hours, and that is all he can afford to pay rent for. All of which he informed me of AFTER the fact.

This seems to suggest why he wanted to use two of you. But, it sounds like you'll be doing a wedding for bridezilla, and you'll take the heat if things don't go well for the other (less experienced) photographer. $1500 is attractive, but undertaking a job with so many 'if's may not be worth it. . I also think it is for you to determine and insist on the conditions that the job requires, and not the person hiring you. I'd walk away with a professional explanation and no rancor

 

[mgb74]

I just don't get why him hiring a second out photographer is helping here... If you agreed that you could get the 150 pieces done on your own in 6 hours, why throw a monkey wrench into the gears? Unless he only hired you for 75 of them?

Anyway good luck! This sounds like a challenge. Maybe I should come along too

As the original post mentioned, second photographer is his (client) sister's fiancee. If you're willing the marry the client's other sister, you can probably go along too.

 

[omaha]

Howdy!

Maybe something along the lines of;
=======================
Dear Client,

I appreciate the opportunity to serve you with regards to the photographic shoot on such and such a date and address. I must however bring up an issue that is somewhat uncomfortable to discuss, as I certainly value our business relationship and would hate to have anything damage that relationship.

I have a policy of not working alongside other photographers unless I have a pre-existing relationship with them. I may employ methods and techniques that I do not wish to share with other photographers, as they provide me some of my competitive advantage. I only allow those on site whom are necessary for me to complete the assignment. I therefore must ask that no other photographers be present while I am working on this assignment.

I am quite certain that if you had a potential business competitor show up to your business you would be hesitant to give them free access to the inner workings of your business, or allow them to see your processes and procedures.

I am confident that as a business man, you understand my position.

I look forward to your positive response, and confirmation that we are still a go on such and such a date.

Warmest regards,

.sig
====================================

That's how I would do it - But - please consider not possibly throwing the baby out with the bath - Sometimes having a good strategic partner / photographer can be better for both of you. One of my best friends was a "competitor" - another commercial photographer ( Dennis, has it really been 20 years since we last talked? Dead Link Removed )

When we all lift each other up, we all come out ahead.

So, yes, I would let the client know - but I would be ever on the lookout for a mutually beneficial relationship. You never know where they will pop up. But they do take some time to develop.

Hope you find this helpful.

Blaine

Very well said. I concur with this entirely.

 

[omaha]

The working arrangement for the moment (which still goes out the window without signed contract and deposit) is that I will work with 2 models, the other photographer will work with 2 other models. This ought to be good enough to keep us from stepping on each others' toes. But I'm still skeptical of the ability of one of us or both of us to get the volume of shots completed in the time the client thinks they'll be completed - he wants to get the shoot done in 6 hours, photographing 75 items each (150 items total).

I hope the models are VERY good! That's a long day to be in front of the camera, and an incredible pace to the shooting!

 

[StoneNYC]

As the original post mentioned, second photographer is his (client) sister's fiancee. If you're willing the marry the client's other sister, you can probably go along too.

Did you ask of these were professional models or perhaps the wife AND her sister? Eep! At the pace you will have to shoot I would make sure to vet the models as well.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Scott, tell him to take a hike.

 

[Rick A]

The time frame reminds me of my days with Olan Mills doing portraits. We were booked at a rate of 3 minutes for a single subject, and 5 minutes for a group. I used to shoot 475-500 sittings, seven hour day,and five day week on the road. All the road photogs worked alone, had to do all our own paper work, shoot start, mid day, and end of day gray scales(and if we had a roll change), straighten up clothing, create a repor with the subject(usually kids--tough as hell), keep idiot parents happy, and get great shots so our proof sales people could upsell.

I see someone who will, by the end of the day, will be cussing the client and wishing the shoot never happened, unless the time frame is expanded. I hope you can pull it off.

 

[removed account4]

The time frame reminds me of my days with Olan Mills doing portraits. We were booked at a rate of 3 minutes for a single subject, and 5 minutes for a group. I used to shoot 475-500 sittings, seven hour day,and five day week on the road. All the road photogs worked alone, had to do all our own paper work, shoot start, mid day, and end of day gray scales(and if we had a roll change), straighten up clothing, create a repor with the subject(usually kids--tough as hell), keep idiot parents happy, and get great shots so our proof sales people could upsell.

I see someone who will, by the end of the day, will be cussing the client and wishing the shoot never happened, unless the time frame is expanded. I hope you can pull it off.

exactly

 

[Drew B.]

I would tell him the day rate is for you; His brother in law, acting as an assistant to you will have to be paid by him...it doesn't come out of your fee.

 

[Sirius Glass]

I do not think the client is paying the future brother-in-law.

 

[Drew B.]

Ok, you have a free assistant! Make him work his ass off...

 

[frank]

Keep sending him out for coffee, sandwiches, and a very necessary piece of black fabric, etc.

 

[StoneNYC]

Keep sending him out for coffee, sandwiches, and a very necessary piece of black fabric, etc.

+1

 

[removed account4]

the guy isnt there to be an assistant, but to help shoot as a second shooter

the letter isa good idea ... i've had a last minute add on shooter on a gig, it was not good ...

 

[jovo]

Try taking your car into a shop and telling them they have x number of hours to do the work! hahahahahahahahhahaha............right! Walk much?

 

[Light Guru]

Ok, you have a free assistant! Make him work his ass off...

Did you not read the last response from the original poster?

The working arrangement for the moment (which still goes out the window without signed contract and deposit) is that I will work with 2 models, the other photographer will work with 2 other models. This ought to be good enough to keep us from stepping on each others' toes. But I'm still skeptical of the ability of one of us or both of us to get the volume of shots completed in the time the client thinks they'll be completed - he wants to get the shoot done in 6 hours, photographing 75 items each (150 items total).

The other photographer is being brought in as another regular photographer NOT as an assistant. The location was not available foe as long as they need to get through all the items so they are bringing in another photographer and both will be working at the same time photographing different items so they can get through them all in a shorter time.

 

[BrianShaw]

Keep sending him out for coffee, sandwiches, and a very necessary piece of black fabric, etc.

Hey, that sounds EXACTLY like my first photo job. No wonder I changed careers fast!

 

[Xmas]

Did you not read the last response from the original poster?

Hey this is the web people don't read the OPs threads or earlier than penultimate...

The customer has picked a location that is too expensive so can only afford a 6 hour window...

The OP needs to find the customer a cheaper or free location and go back to a two day shoot. The two day shoot might have been tight on time anyway.

You need to keep errant customers in budget. Telling them you are a fussy artist wont get the Job done.

 

[BrianShaw]

I never read the penultimate posting. Just the first and the next to last one.

The customer's theory is a well-known one learned in business school: if you need to get more work done faster, throw a few more bodies on it. Sometimes it actually works. But it can be very personality driven.

 

[Tom1956]

Being a pro photog is a career I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy.

 

[Xmas]

I never read the penultimate posting. Just the first and the next to last one.

The customer's theory is a well-known one learned in business school: if you need to get more work done faster, throw a few more bodies on it. Sometimes it actually works. But it can be very personality driven.

Hi Brian
Yes I under stand arithmetic and they make computers with four cores but don't get a four factor increase with all software.
Two shoot days with me means 20 hours six hours into twenty does not give two?
Ignoring any scaling factor...
The customer needs a free location cine crews can work in London for free the police don't even attend. The groupies stand back and watch.