I did indeed mix up the number of editions from dark room cookbook and film developing cookbook. Either way, the latest edition states 1 or 2 g/l Metol, and anyone can ask Bill or Steve about the origin of the 1 g/l number.
Typing errors in formula books were quite common back then, so there's a good chance, that 2 g/l was the authentic number, but 1 g/l also made it into literature and saw wide use. At 1 g/l it would certainly be different from 2 g/l, but not necessarily better or worse.
1g/L metol is a direct quote from Crawley BJP 1960 p 684, IDK where he got it from but it seems to be wrong.I did indeed mix up the number of editions from dark room cookbook and film developing cookbook. Either way, the latest edition states 1 or 2 g/l Metol, and anyone can ask Bill or Steve about the origin of the 1 g/l numb.
1g/L metol is a direct quote from Crawley BJP 1960 p 684, IDK where he got it from but it seems to be wrong.
I have never used or recommended Adox Borax MQ, Ian already pointed this out. Ian has also cleared up his stance on Adox Borax MQ vs. XTol, so I guess the thread can return to Phenidone vs. Dimezone-S.@Rudeofus - Now that we know the formula for it, I'm still wondering: In what ways is Adox MQ Borax better than Xtol?
I have never used or recommended Adox Borax MQ....
Ian Grant typically speaks very highly of Adox Borax MQ, and I frequently got the impression, that he advertised it as the best developer ever made. I paraphrased him here, maybe a bit more pointed than it should have been, and achieved irritation and strong response from Ian and a confused Mark. I do not consider any of this a great accomplishment on my side and wish, that my posting would finally disappear in the foggy past of this forum.In posting no. 17, you wrote: "Adox MQ Borax is the best developer of all times and beats XTol like a drum in every aspect." Did you have the names reversed, so you actually meant that Xtol is superior?
I, for one, have quite a few APUG posts I would like to erase from history.
Indeed XTOL was essentially the first (and last) developer to improve - albeit slightly - on the “triad” properties of D-76 with the films we have at our disposal.
Edit: If I recall, Ian prefers Pyrocat.
Ian Grant typically speaks very highly of Adox Borax MQ, and I frequently got the impression, that he advertised it as the best developer ever made. I paraphrased him here, maybe a bit more pointed than it should have been, and achieved irritation and strong response from Ian and a confused Mark. I do not consider any of this a great accomplishment on my side and wish, that my posting would finally disappear in the foggy past of this forum.
On a personal level: I have used D-76 once, and I have used neither Adox Borax MQ nor XTol. From the few things I have learned in all those years, I highly doubt, that there is much image difference between D-76 and Adox Borax MQ. Over the years every B&W film has been optimized for D-76 due to its massive market dominance, any differences between Adox Borax MQ and D-76 would rather tilt in D-76's favor after so many decades of extra knowledge in and technology for emulsion making. I would expect XTol to offer better speed, grain and sharpness than both D-76 and Adox Borax MQ.
You could always ask a moderator to insert [sarcasm alert on] and [sarcasm alert off] flagswish, that my posting would finally disappear in the foggy past of this forum.
You could always ask a moderator to insert [sarcasm alert on] and [sarcasm alert off] flags
Ian, what PQ developer is best in your opinion? I thought ID-68 was nearly the best possible using PQ, so I'm surprised you disliked its grain. Actually, I'm wondering how the best PQ compares to the best PC, primarily in terms of grain, but also for sharpness.I only used Microphen/ID068 for push processing, I didn't like the grain and tonality for normal use.
One striking feature of Phenidone and its derivatives is the 1/2 stop extra emulsion speed it gives with normal development. Obviously its inventors tried to bank on this trait and sacrifices grain and sharpness to get maybe even a full stop of extra speed, c.f. Microphen, FX-11, ... Evidently it took decades until XTol was released, which ignored the "gives an extra 2/3 speed" obsession and stuck a better balance between speed, grain and sharpness.Now back to Phenidone, at the time I worked as an emulsion/photo chemist but also photographed rock bands for a recording studio/record company. I used Microphen/ID-68 which in some ways is a PQ version of Adox Borax MQ, the Sodium Sulphite level is dropped in this case to 85g/l compared to the 100g/litre of ID-11/D76 and also Ilfords PQ photofinishing developer Autophen - a PQ version of ID-11. I only used Microphen/ID068 for push processing, I didn't like the grain and tonality for normal use.
Ian, what PQ developer is best in your opinion? I thought ID-68 was nearly the best possible using PQ, so I'm surprised you disliked its grain. Actually, I'm wondering how the best PQ compares to the best PC, primarily in terms of grain, but also for sharpness.
Mark Overton
One striking feature of Phenidone and its derivatives is the 1/2 stop extra emulsion speed it gives with normal development. Obviously its inventors tried to bank on this trait and sacrifices grain and sharpness to get maybe even a full stop of extra speed, c.f. Microphen, FX-11, ... Evidently it took decades until XTol was released, which ignored the "gives an extra 2/3 speed" obsession and stuck a better balance between speed, grain and sharpness.
All color film is T grain, yet Kodak still calls for the much more expensive HQMS in E-6 FD. Evidently there are significant differences to be achieved even in T grain films.In terms of fine grain traditional emulsions are more dependant on developer choice, with T grain and similar films it's more inherent in the emulsion.
If you want to reach smallest possible grain, you have to keep most image detail somewhere around a density of 0.3. 0.3 is the density with the lowest granularity, since you have an even balance between silver and no silver, and if you deviate too far from this optimum, spatial resolution goes down the drain. These "beautiful fat negatives" with important image matter happening between D=1 and D=3 are bound to be grainy.While he results with PQ Universal were excellent in terms fine grain and sharpness, but compared to ID-11there was a slight speed drop maybe half a stop, but it was very "Clean" working. By clean working really we mean less base fog, although this is more to do with dissolved colloidal silver at higher Sulphite levels which is why the 70-85g/l is more optimal than 100g/l
If you want to reach smallest possible grain, you have to keep most image detail somewhere around a density of 0.3. 0.3 is the density with the lowest granularity, since you have an even balance between silver and no silver, and if you deviate too far from this optimum, spatial resolution goes down the drain. These "beautiful fat negatives" with important image matter happening between D=1 and D=3 are bound to be grainy.
If you want to keep all significant image detail between D=0.1 and D=0.8, you have to avoid fog at all cost, and avoiding fog at all cost (which you called "clean working") suppresses the toe region and quickly leads to speed loss.
I have no real data on Phenidone, but would suspect, that it sticks to silver much tighter than Metol. This may well prevent silver sulfite complexes from escaping the emulsion.
I have no real data on Phenidone, but would suspect, that it sticks to silver much tighter than Metol. This may well prevent silver sulfite complexes from escaping the emulsion.
Yes Ilford themselves stated ID-68 was an entirely new formula rather than the tweaking they did to produce Autophen. Of course it's come from observations with formulating Autophen and exploiting both the slight speed increase of Phenidone and a speed increase by dropping the Sulphite. DD-X is supposed to be similar to a liquid form of Microphen.
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