pH-meter questions

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RalphLambrecht

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I recently bought one of these hand-held pH meters.

http://cgi.ebay.de/New-pH-Meter-Tes...edsBulbs_JN?hash=item3efe73e255#ht_1130wt_780

Given the price, I'm not expecting too much, but I have a few general questions on pH meters.

1. This meter came dry and the instructions don't say anything about storing it any other way than dry. I thought, pH meters must be stored in a storage solution?

2. It did not come with a buffer solution for calibration, but recommends calibration in such a solution. Can I make the calibration solution myself? For example, I have boric acid. This pH calculator (http://www.sensorex.com/support/education/pH_calculator.html) says that 0.1 g of boric acid in 1 l of water should give me a pH of 6.0. Couldn't I use that as a solution to calibrate the meter?
 

Anscojohn

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Distilled water should be 7.0
 

Photo Engineer

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Here we go again. DW is not pH 7.0 due to dissolved CO2. Sorry.

As for the meter, one electrode should be a silvery metal probe and the other should be a small bulb with a small wire in it submerged in a liquid. They both should be in an end cap that is wet with a storage solution. If it is a Hanna meter, go to their web site or here: http://www.espchemicals.com/product..._ID2=1210&CategoryDescription=0&keyword=Spare

You should be able to find storage solution, filling solution and spare electrodes for your unit.

PE
 

3e8

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According to the listing, you meter supports a two point calibration, which will give you much better results than a single point calibration.

For buffers, I wouldn't reccomend making you own, there are too many variables. You can purchase buffer solutions specifically made for calibrating pH meters from Lamotte

I would reccomend the premade solutions rather than the buffer tablets, unless you have very precise volumetric glassware.
 

Nicholas Lindan

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TTBOMK, pH meters should be stored wet. In this style of meter the cap that covers the electrode bulb should have some foam, the foam is kept wet. If it has dried out then add a bit of distilled water; there should be the crust of buffer salts present in the cap. As long as the electrode itself hasn't dried out you should be OK.

To make a buffer you need a combination of a complimentary acid and base that in opposition hold a certain pH value. Formula for several can be found at:
http://microscopy.berkeley.edu/Resources/instruction/buffers.html

A citric acid / sodium citrate buffer can be made from citric acid and sodium bicarbonate. S. Bicarb and Cit. Acid make S. Citrate. It is the ratio of ingredients that determines the pH more than the concentration. Most commercial buffers are made from phosphate, however citric acid is a common darkroom chemical and makes a reasonable buffer.

An unopposed acid in water will not have a stable pH value. Distilled water will only have a pH of 7.0 if absolutely pure and devoid of all gas. As this is never the case, distilled water can be guaranteed to be any pH but 7.0.
 
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Kirk Keyes

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Yeah, don't expect too much...

Question #1 - For use, always store the glass electrode of a pH meter in water if you plan on using it. The glass takes time to hydrate and it's best to just keep the electrode in water if it will be used anytime soon. For long term storage, dry is fine.

For wet storage, do not store it in plain or even deionized water. Electrodes are typically stored in 3 Molar KCl or pH 7 buffer that has had KCl added to make it 3 M. Get a beaker (tall form (berzelius) beakers are good for this) and add extra storage solution in and place the electrode into it and cover the beaker with plastic wrap to slow evaporation. Or, if the electrode cap on the meter holds water, just pour some storage solution into it and cap it on the electrode. Store it upright as you don't want KCl to leak all over the place. The KCl will flow up the sides of the beaker as it dries, but remember - Do not fear the KCl Creep.

I'm assuming the electrode is gel-filled, i.e. there is no access hole to fill the inside of the glass electrode?

Question #2 - For calibration, I see you meter says it has 2 point calibration. What you need to do is determine what range you want to calibrate for. And by range, you can't just say, "I want to calibrate from pH 0 to 14, of course." pH meters don't work that way. You need to choose calibration points that are about 3 maybe 4 pH units apart. Common pH standards can be found for pH 2.5, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 10, and 12.5. For developer work, you probably want to use pH 7 and 10 or perhaps 10 and 12.5.

I suspect a meter like that may not work too well at pH 12.5, but who knows until you try. And with resolution of only 0.1 units, it will probably me fine, even at the ends of the pH range. It's the people (I often find them in labs) that seem to think if a pH meter reads to 3 decimal places, then it must be accurate... Good luck. It takes a lot of work to read pH accurately and precisely to 3 decimal places. Even with the best meters, 1 decimal place is usually easy, 2 is a much harder, and the 3rd decimal place is pretty much so unreliable and variable that it would make a fine random number generator.

Back to calibration - make/buy some solutions, place the meter in the first solution, adjust the meter, rinse the electrode with Deionized water and blot it gently with a tissue, and then place it in the next solution. Adjust the meter. Go back to the first solution and check and adjust if necessary, second standard and adjust if necessary. Repeat until you get it calibrated.

Then check you calibration frequently - like every 30 or 60 minutes. Just put it back into your standards and make sure it hasn't drifted since calibration. Don't go all day without checking the calibration.

To make solutions, you want to have buffered standards. Boric acid alone will not make a very good buffer - actually it will not make a buffer at all. Or you can mix them from a few stock chemicals - used in pairs to make the buffer solutions. I usually use ph 4, 7, and 10 for my pH work. They are typically made commercially using the following chemicals:
pH 4 - potassium acid phthalate (KHP)
pH 7 - Potassium Phosphate Monobasic and sodium hydroxide
pH 10 - boric acid and potassium hydroxide, or potassium borate, potassium carbonate, and potassium hydroxide

You can also buy dry powders instead of premade liquid standards. The powders come in little gel caplets or foil pouches that you empty into DI water and bring to a volume. Those are nice when you don't need a lot and use them infrequently.
 

Kirk Keyes

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An unopposed acid in water will not have a stable pH value. Distilled water will only have a pH of 7.0 if absolutely pure and devoid of all gas. As this is never the case, distilled water can be guaranteed to be any pH but 7.0.

As Nicholas and PE mentioned above, you can't use DI water.

I've seen DI water come out of a high quality (>18 Meg Ohm) deionizing system and the pH is close to 7, but within just a few minutes of sitting exposed to the air, the pH will wander around - down to pH 4.5 or so if given enough time.
 

RobertV

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For wet storage, do not store it in plain or even deionized water. Electrodes are typically stored in 3 Molar KCl or pH 7 buffer that has had KCl added to make it 3 M. Get a beaker (tall form (berzelius) beakers are good for this) and add extra storage solution in and place the electrode into it and cover the beaker with plastic wrap to slow evaporation. Or, if the electrode cap on the meter holds water, just pour some storage solution into it and cap it on the electrode. Store it upright as you don't want KCl to leak all over the place. The KCl will flow up the sides of the beaker as it dries, but remember - Do not fear the KCl Creep.

I'm assuming the electrode is gel-filled, i.e. there is no access hole to fill the inside of the glass electrode?

Question #2 - For calibration, I see you meter says it has 2 point calibration. What you need to do is determine what range you want to calibrate for. And by range, you can't just say, "I want to calibrate from pH 0 to 14, of course." pH meters don't work that way. You need to choose calibration points that are about 3 maybe 4 pH units apart. Common pH standards can be found for pH 2.5, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 10, and 12.5. For developer work, you probably want to use pH 7 and 10 or perhaps 10 and 12.5.

I suspect a meter like that may not work too well at pH 12.5, but who knows until you try. And with resolution of only 0.1 units, it will probably me fine, even at the ends of the pH range. It's the people (I often find them in labs) that seem to think if a pH meter reads to 3 decimal places, then it must be accurate... Good luck. It takes a lot of work to read pH accurately and precisely to 3 decimal places. Even with the best meters, 1 decimal place is usually easy, 2 is a much harder, and the 3rd decimal place is pretty much so unreliable and variable that it would make a fine random number generator.

Back to calibration - make/buy some solutions, place the meter in the first solution, adjust the meter, rinse the electrode with Deionized water and blot it gently with a tissue, and then place it in the next solution. Adjust the meter. Go back to the first solution and check and adjust if necessary, second standard and adjust if necessary. Repeat until you get it calibrated.

Then check you calibration frequently - like every 30 or 60 minutes. Just put it back into your standards and make sure it hasn't drifted since calibration. Don't go all day without checking the calibration.

To make solutions, you want to have buffered standards. Boric acid alone will not make a very good buffer - actually it will not make a buffer at all. Or you can mix them from a few stock chemicals - used in pairs to make the buffer solutions. I usually use ph 4, 7, and 10 for my pH work. They are typically made commercially using the following chemicals:
pH 4 - potassium acid phthalate (KHP)
pH 7 - Potassium Phosphate Monobasic and sodium hydroxide
pH 10 - boric acid and potassium hydroxide, or potassium borate, potassium carbonate, and potassium hydroxide

You can also buy dry powders instead of premade liquid standards. The powders come in little gel caplets or foil pouches that you empty into DI water and bring to a volume. Those are nice when you don't need a lot and use them infrequently.
__________________
Kirk

Well on this part of chemistry I can not add any further usefull information. Just from re-write it from Dutch in understandable English. I can only fully agree with above recommendations.
 
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RalphLambrecht

RalphLambrecht

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Thanks to Kirk and all others for the replies.

I'll have to take this one step at a time.

...For wet storage, do not store it in plain or even deionized water. Electrodes are typically stored in 3 Molar KCl or pH 7 buffer that has had KCl added to make it 3 M...

Kirk
I have KCl. How do I prepare this solution? KCL having 74.551 g/mol, do I need to dissolve 224 g in a liter of water?
 

Q.G.

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The same seller also sells calibration solutions for very little money.
Good to have for starters, providing time to figure out how to make your own.

The meters are sold for aquarium owners, and shops selling aquarium stuff may have ready made solutions too.
 

Q.G.

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Absolutely.

But remember that the meter itself is also a sub € 10 item, not sold by a lab supplier. :wink:
 

AgX

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A new ph-meter for less than 10€; amazing.

Indicator paper would cost more...
 
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RalphLambrecht

RalphLambrecht

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A new ph-meter for less than 10€; amazing.

Indicator paper would cost more...

And it may be more reliable. We'll see.

So far, however, my first test was pretty successful. A 1.5% solution of citric acid, which I expected to be around 2.2 measured at 2.3, but then I remember, I had used it for a couple of prints already.
 

Anscojohn

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Here we go again. DW is not pH 7.0 due to dissolved CO2. Sorry.
***************
Learn something new every day, I do. Thanks for the correction. BTW, what SHOULD D.W. meter at?
 

Kirk Keyes

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Here we go again. DW is not pH 7.0 due to dissolved CO2. Sorry.
***************
Learn something new every day, I do. Thanks for the correction. BTW, what SHOULD D.W. meter at?

Weel that's the problem - there's no buffering and very low conductivity and so it's anyone guess what DI water will read at. Generally, you can get measurements from pH 4 to 8, and typically from 4.5 to 6.5. But it's not going to be stable 0 it may swing from one side to the other of the ranges I mentioned over the course of several minutes.
 

Kirk Keyes

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Thanks to Kirk and all others for the replies.
Kirk
I have KCl. How do I prepare this solution? KCL having 74.551 g/mol, do I need to dissolve 224 g in a liter of water?

Your math is right, but I would make less than a liter as it will last some time!
 

Kirk Keyes

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If you need something higher quality as far as meters go, I've had good luck with 2 used pH meters and 2 electrodes. It's a matter of knowing what to look for, and I can help with that when the time comes. It can be done with about $50 for a meter and $40 for electrodes, if one is patient enought to find good deals.
 

Photo Engineer

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I usually get about 6.2 - 6.5 for DW, but it has gone as low as 5.5. Nominally, fresh DW from the still should be 7.0 but is often low right off. Often an active still drives the CO2 out so that the first fraction is lower in pH than the rest. They all drop in most plastic bottles.

PE
 
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RalphLambrecht

RalphLambrecht

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If you need something higher quality as far as meters go, I've had good luck with 2 used pH meters and 2 electrodes. It's a matter of knowing what to look for, and I can help with that when the time comes. It can be done with about $50 for a meter and $40 for electrodes, if one is patient enought to find good deals.

I would appreciate the help!
 
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RalphLambrecht

RalphLambrecht

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hrst

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I have kind of similar meter as posted by OP. Well, looks exactly the same, but with 1-point calibration. I'm surprised how well it works for its price. If I adjust it to show 4.0 when inserted to 4.0 buffer, and then put it in 10.0 buffer, it shows 10.0. And doesn't seem to drift much (maybe 0.1) in a few hours of random use.

Mine had instructions with it, suggesting dry storage. So, I've stored it dry.

Another question is, how long it will last. We'll see.
 
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RalphLambrecht

RalphLambrecht

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I have kind of similar meter as posted by OP. Well, looks exactly the same, but with 1-point calibration. I'm surprised how well it works for its price. If I adjust it to show 4.0 when inserted to 4.0 buffer, and then put it in 10.0 buffer, it shows 10.0. And doesn't seem to drift much (maybe 0.1) in a few hours of random use.

Mine had instructions with it, suggesting dry storage. So, I've stored it dry.

Another question is, how long it will last. We'll see.

This is what troubles me. Why would they suggest dry storage if common wisdom says exactly the opposite.

By the way, it must be the same, and I don't know why they call it 2-point calibration. There is only one adjustment screw. The direction talk about 1-point calibration too. I think the ad is wrong in this claim.
 
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