Personal EI or film speed test procedure

Stephen Ryde said:

Thanks Bill
Yes I am evaluating all this according to the shadows

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Ah then using a Zone System speed that is 2/3 stop less than ISO is NOT increased exposure using Zone System. They are identical exposures.

Next question: What Zone do you place your shadow reading on?

As wonderful as the Zone System is, there is no canonical placement. Minor White wrote Zone II, Ansel Adams wrote Zone III and Bruce Barnbaum wrote Zone IV.

What criteria do you use when choosing a shadow spot reading?

Do you scan the scene and take the lowest reading, maybe an open door black? Do you ignore the blackest spot reading and look for a dark gray in the shade? Do you look for the darkest spot where you want to see detail. Do you deliberately let larger parts of the scene drop to black or do you want it all to have some detail?

I don’t want to destroy your confidence. I want you to be enlightened.

The Zone System is not as accurate as it could have been.

But it is every bit as intentional as it’s cracked up to be.

And that’s why the Zone System will never die.

Bill Burk said:

Ah then using a Zone System speed that is 2/3 stop less than ISO is NOT increased exposure using Zone System. They are identical exposures.

Next question: What Zone do you place your shadow reading on?

As wonderful as the Zone System is, there is no canonical placement. Minor White wrote Zone II, Ansel Adams wrote Zone III and Bruce Barnbaum wrote Zone IV.

What criteria do you use when choosing a shadow spot reading?

Do you scan the scene and take the lowest reading, maybe an open door black? Do you ignore the blackest spot reading and look for a dark gray in the shade? Do you look for the darkest spot where you want to see detail. Do you deliberately let larger parts of the scene drop to black or do you want it all to have some detail?

I don’t want to destroy your confidence. I want you to be enlightened.

The Zone System is not as accurate as it could have been.

But it is every bit as intentional as it’s cracked up to be.

And that’s why the Zone System will never die.

Click to expand...

Thank you. Now I see that I am not alone in pointing out the just reducing the film speed arbitrarily is just blindly shooting away without any thought to what is needed or not needed in shadow detail, a major reason for using the Zone System. Shoot at Box Speed and adjust for shadows as necessary.

Bill Burk said:

Ah then using a Zone System speed that is 2/3 stop less than ISO is NOT increased exposure using Zone System. They are identical exposures.

Next question: What Zone do you place your shadow reading on?

As wonderful as the Zone System is, there is no canonical placement. Minor White wrote Zone II, Ansel Adams wrote Zone III and Bruce Barnbaum wrote Zone IV.

What criteria do you use when choosing a shadow spot reading?

Do you scan the scene and take the lowest reading, maybe an open door black? Do you ignore the blackest spot reading and look for a dark gray in the shade? Do you look for the darkest spot where you want to see detail. Do you deliberately let larger parts of the scene drop to black or do you want it all to have some detail?

I don’t want to destroy your confidence. I want you to be enlightened.

The Zone System is not as accurate as it could have been.

But it is every bit as intentional as it’s cracked up to be.

And that’s why the Zone System will never die.

Click to expand...

Thank you Bill
Many questions to be considered
I typically look for the darkest part of the scene that I would like to show detail and place that on Zone III
I have started with iso 200 shooting HP5+
My developer, dilution, temperature, agitation method remains constant when I am developing. The development time I am using is from the Massive Dev Chart for a place to start.
I have found, with guidance from a friend of mine whose opinion i very much trust and respect, that iso 200 is too slow with the equipment that I use.
I will increase my iso and see where that takes me using the method that I use.
I am still quite confident that I am progressing toward a negative that I will be happy with. When I do arrive at that point I hope I am still capable of firing the shutter.
This, former Apug, platform has been a wealth of information for me.
I love shooting film, whether it is a film test grey card or a composition of whatever.
Long Live the Zone System

Respectful
Stephen

Stephen,

You would do well to give the spot meter a setting of 125 with a 200 rated film since you spot the darkest tone that you want to see detail in, and place that reading on Zone III.

Cheers

pentaxuser said:

I wonder how we reconcile this?

pentaxuser


Quite likely.No coincidence that an understatement for instance is known as a British understatement. Like most things British it is always best to underrate it. Things tend to be slower here. We're a half box speed nation

pentaxuser

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I don't think Brexit was underrated.

A word or two about shadow placement with the Zone System:

Blindly placing shadows in a given Zone, be it II, III, or IV or whatever, isn't taking advantage of the visualization aspect of the Zone System at all, and which is its major advantage, IM-HO. That's equally as misguided as simply rating your film slower because someone says it's a good idea.

The relationship of D-max (maximum black in the print) in conjunction with the look, feel and texture of the shadow value you are placing is a first primary concern. Then, it's how you want any particular shadow value rendered. I place some shadows in Zone II (when I want a dark, featureless, black that still has some feeling of "reality" in the scene, not just a massive black patch) and some in Zone V (luminous shadows in snow are great here) and some in Zones III and IV, all depending on what I want the shadow to look and feel like.

The first part of the above, the relationship of a particular shadow rendering to D-max in the print is a function of exposure. Not enough exposure and you won't get enough separation between maximum black and Zone III, for example and the whole scale gets skewed (note that overexposure, to a point, isn't a problem here). Note that the way Zone-System metering works usually results in the film being rated 1/3-2/3-stop slower than box speed. Still, one should test, keep notes and refine their personal E.I. to give them the desired max-black-to-shadow-value relationships.

The second part of the above, how you visualize and place a shadow in relation to the other tones in the scene, is the crux of the visualization part of the Zone System. Shadow values have expressive qualities and where you place the shadow in a scene has a lot to do with the expressiveness of the print. (Highlights get taken care of with development/paper-contrast choice). Mindlessly placing all shadows in the same Zone because that's what the "system" says to do for proper exposure is a misunderstanding of the Zone System.

Best,

Doremus

Doremus Scudder said:

A word or two about shadow placement with the Zone System:

…how you visualize and place a shadow in relation to the other tones in the scene, is the crux of the visualization part of the Zone System. Shadow values have expressive qualities and where you place the shadow in a scene has a lot to do with the expressiveness of the print.

Best,

Doremus

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As you say, the crux of the entire system is expressiveness.