People Preferring Analog

Agawa Canyon

A
Agawa Canyon

  • 2
  • 2
  • 29
Spin-in-in-in

D
Spin-in-in-in

  • 0
  • 0
  • 23
Frank Dean,  Blacksmith

A
Frank Dean, Blacksmith

  • 13
  • 7
  • 205
Woman wearing shades.

Woman wearing shades.

  • 1
  • 1
  • 145

Recent Classifieds

Forum statistics

Threads
198,860
Messages
2,782,043
Members
99,733
Latest member
dlevans59
Recent bookmarks
0
OP
OP
Colin Corneau

Colin Corneau

Member
Joined
Nov 20, 2007
Messages
2,366
Location
Winnipeg MB Canada
Format
35mm RF
Thanks for the comments, Aristophenes...do you have any cornflakes to go piss in, or puppies to kick this morning?

I guess I can take some comfort that at least Thomas gets it.
 
OP
OP
Colin Corneau

Colin Corneau

Member
Joined
Nov 20, 2007
Messages
2,366
Location
Winnipeg MB Canada
Format
35mm RF
And for the record, I happen to know the photographer quoted. He does indeed have a connection to his subjects...a statement pretty apparent when you look at his work. Have you done so? That sort of quality comes from actually creating work...not sitting on an internet forum crapping all over people and subjects you know little about. Kind of like that pitchfork and haystack analogy you poetically referenced.

I know one is not supposed to 'feed the internet troll', but an egregious statement is an egregious statement. Splash some cold water on your face, go outside and feel the sun on your face. And hey, why not bring a film camera with you, while you're at it. What you might want to avoid doing, is dumping on a dedicated film photographer...**on a forum devoted to analog film shooting*. Good lord....
 

kb3lms

Member
Joined
Jun 24, 2006
Messages
1,004
Location
Reading, PA
Format
35mm
Prove it by looking at the image. Prove it. Because the next day, no one will be able to tell. Nor will they in 10 or 100 years. Therefore it's not about the art, it's about the artist's self-justification. Each to their own, but at least have the courage to call it what it is.

Oh, for the love of God.....
 
Joined
Jan 21, 2003
Messages
15,708
Location
Switzerland
Format
Multi Format
Catch a breath? Whatever, man. You are so aggressive.

They are NOT thinking outside the norm!

They are simply using what was the norm 30 years ago under the guise of being different.

Do YOU remember the rooms full of manual typewriters hammering away? The secretarial pools? The "auditory experience" was terrible.

Those were the norm and, frankly, they were awful.

It's a quirky article but is romanticizes and makes nostalgic processes that were dreary back then. Writers used to justify their romance with the typewriter even though the hated the damn things and saw them as a necessary evil.

The economics of this is 100% funded by the fact that the equipment is dirt cheap salvage which consumers, businesses and government now find inefficient to use. Using Super 8 for example, is staggeringly more expensive than other mediums and it is ONLY made possible by the cost differential. The funds to process are only there because of the rock-bottom salvage costs of the cameras. This is why it is artists using disposable income are the ones gravitating to older technology. They are using the detritus of past economic and technological cycles can calling it an expressive medium whereas once it was blood and guts, money-making enterprise. Let's not put on rose coloured glasses. If she makes a terrific film, excellent. That's what counts. Making the process itself an artistic statement is a personal choice, one made possible by prior economic subsidy.

And this quote from the article makes me laugh:

"In a sense, the digital world can only deal with things that can be quantified, says Milne, 38, who has an engineering background. "So things like experience, even spirituality and religion -- all that stuff that we can't push into a rational, logical framework, sort of drops off the map."

You have got to be kidding me.

When personal computers came out they were seen as a means of humanizing ("Hello. Welcome to Macintosh") what for most was a deeply dehumanizing experience, and that was white collar analog information management. People went blind loading fonts into prepress machines. Hard hammering typewriters contributed to deafness. Computers were seen as liberating. Less so in hindsight, but that takes nothing away from the sheer drudgery beforehand.

And an engineer should know that analog is just as much about quantification as digital.

I have no problem with using analog devices in "new and creative ways", but to assert nonsense about some sort of spiritual connection is absurd. It was never that way in the past. In fact, corporate managers were the ones who tried to "liberate" the workplace in such ways against the average person who used the equipment. The guy in the corner suite dictated to a typist.

It's like people romanticizing haystacks but they would never get in a field themselves and pitchfork one into being to foster a greater connection to the land. It's always better when someone else, preferably in another country or our hard working farming ancestors, had to do the really hard work.

These hipsters have not only short memories, but they are creating their own media-infused ones that are fundamentally inaccurate compared to the historical record. There's also no shortage of lo-fi elitism. Instead of just appreciating the image, we get this:

"With film, "there's a lot more communication between photographer and subject," he says. "I find it can be more of a collaboration."

Prove it by looking at the image. Prove it. Because the next day, no one will be able to tell. Nor will they in 10 or 100 years. Therefore it's not about the art, it's about the artist's self-justification. Each to their own, but at least have the courage to call it what it is.
 

MaximusM3

Member
Joined
Jul 11, 2010
Messages
754
Location
NY
Format
35mm RF
They are NOT thinking outside the norm!

They are simply using what was the norm 30 years ago under the guise of being different.

Do YOU remember the rooms full of manual typewriters hammering away? The secretarial pools? The "auditory experience" was terrible.

Those were the norm and, frankly, they were awful.

It's a quirky article but is romanticizes and makes nostalgic processes that were dreary back then. Writers used to justify their romance with the typewriter even though the hated the damn things and saw them as a necessary evil.

The economics of this is 100% funded by the fact that the equipment is dirt cheap salvage which consumers, businesses and government now find inefficient to use. Using Super 8 for example, is staggeringly more expensive than other mediums and it is ONLY made possible by the cost differential. The funds to process are only there because of the rock-bottom salvage costs of the cameras. This is why it is artists using disposable income are the ones gravitating to older technology. They are using the detritus of past economic and technological cycles can calling it an expressive medium whereas once it was blood and guts, money-making enterprise. Let's not put on rose coloured glasses. If she makes a terrific film, excellent. That's what counts. Making the process itself an artistic statement is a personal choice, one made possible by prior economic subsidy.

And this quote from the article makes me laugh:

"In a sense, the digital world can only deal with things that can be quantified, says Milne, 38, who has an engineering background. "So things like experience, even spirituality and religion -- all that stuff that we can't push into a rational, logical framework, sort of drops off the map."

You have got to be kidding me.

When personal computers came out they were seen as a means of humanizing ("Hello. Welcome to Macintosh") what for most was a deeply dehumanizing experience, and that was white collar analog information management. People went blind loading fonts into prepress machines. Hard hammering typewriters contributed to deafness. Computers were seen as liberating. Less so in hindsight, but that takes nothing away from the sheer drudgery beforehand.

And an engineer should know that analog is just as much about quantification as digital.

I have no problem with using analog devices in "new and creative ways", but to assert nonsense about some sort of spiritual connection is absurd. It was never that way in the past. In fact, corporate managers were the ones who tried to "liberate" the workplace in such ways against the average person who used the equipment. The guy in the corner suite dictated to a typist.

It's like people romanticizing haystacks but they would never get in a field themselves and pitchfork one into being to foster a greater connection to the land. It's always better when someone else, preferably in another country or our hard working farming ancestors, had to do the really hard work.

These hipsters have not only short memories, but they are creating their own media-infused ones that are fundamentally inaccurate compared to the historical record. There's also no shortage of lo-fi elitism. Instead of just appreciating the image, we get this:

"With film, "there's a lot more communication between photographer and subject," he says. "I find it can be more of a collaboration."

Prove it by looking at the image. Prove it. Because the next day, no one will be able to tell. Nor will they in 10 or 100 years. Therefore it's not about the art, it's about the artist's self-justification. Each to their own, but at least have the courage to call it what it is.


So....you mean the good old days weren't so good after all? Hey, in 50 years, these will be the good old days and someone will be writing up how wonderful it was to carry an iPhone in bed, while now it is permanently up our asses and transmitting directly into our brains. Big hug! :smile:
 

kb3lms

Member
Joined
Jun 24, 2006
Messages
1,004
Location
Reading, PA
Format
35mm
"In a sense, the digital world can only deal with things that can be quantified, says Milne, 38, who has an engineering background. "So things like experience, even spirituality and religion -- all that stuff that we can't push into a rational, logical framework, sort of drops off the map."

As an engineer who has to use a computer incessantly, all day long, I get this. What he says is 100% right on the money.
 

dugrant153

Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2010
Messages
419
Location
Coquitlam, B
Format
35mm
I just took a Fuji Instax of a group of anti-bullying students (in pink shirts) and gave them the print right there and then.

Gotta love analog.
 

Lionel1972

Member
Joined
Oct 21, 2009
Messages
332
Location
France
Format
Multi Format
Analog is superior to digital fundamentally because digital aways introduce some data loss by virtue of sampling. Analog is more fun than digital now because right now analog is not the norm. The norm always gets granted and thus we tend to get bored with it. When analog was the norm, it was not inferior is was just taken for granted. Now is the perfect time to enjoy analog and get the most fun and pleasure out of it. Especially if we can finally have access to top notch equipment for so little and then have wonderful results we could have dreamt about back in the day. So anyway you look at it, analog is cheaper, more fun, and more pleasurable than digital right now. Maybe in 10 or 20 years digital will be start giving as much fun but analog won't be anything less than it is now.
 

Aristophanes

Member
Joined
Mar 4, 2011
Messages
513
Format
35mm
Analog is superior to digital fundamentally because digital aways introduce some data loss by virtue of sampling. Analog is more fun than digital now because right now analog is not the norm. The norm always gets granted and thus we tend to get bored with it. When analog was the norm, it was not inferior is was just taken for granted. Now is the perfect time to enjoy analog and get the most fun and pleasure out of it. Especially if we can finally have access to top notch equipment for so little and then have wonderful results we could have dreamt about back in the day. So anyway you look at it, analog is cheaper, more fun, and more pleasurable than digital right now. Maybe in 10 or 20 years digital will be start giving as much fun but analog won't be anything less than it is now.

That is fundamentally untrue.

There is data loss in analog: visual audio, etc. This is clearly explained in the article about the lo-fi hiss on albums.

The losses in digital are by economic choice, as in data compression as network capable files are preferred over pure fidelity files. There is no limit to either as they are both just organizations of molecules. NASA's phenomenal photos from space are amalgamations of digital sensors across spectrums. We are finding new planets by the thousands because of digital sensors and their capacity that far exceeds what analog could ever do. The only limitation is the original sensing material. In this respect, sampling is a feature, not a bug.

Yes, analog is fun. What is irksome is if someone makes a crappy photo or film and people say it is crappy. But then the artists says to was made on 10 yer-old expired Tri-x, people swoon because of the process being some artificial purity that no sane filmmaker back in the day would ever do. Worship of the process is replacing real appreciation of the aesthetic, fulling a cult of the artist and not real critiques of their body of work. Making it precious to satisfy the artist's need for self-fulfilment (I can't afford a Red one) takes the fun right out of it.

Is a novel on a typewriter better than one crafted on a word processor? Can you tell the difference? How does Homer feel about that?

Do you know what is making a comeback? The abacus. That's cool. Would you trust the structural support of an F1 car to a formula derived on an abacus? Uh...no.
 

Lionel1972

Member
Joined
Oct 21, 2009
Messages
332
Location
France
Format
Multi Format
I didn't say that analog doesn't have any limitation and doesn't distort reality in its own way. As far as I know, on a molecular level, digital is still far behind what analog capture devices are capable of recording (Bayer filter for example). Weither you like it or not, analog is still much easier and more pleasant for the human brain to assimilate (think about how fatiguiing mp3 recordings are compared to hi-fi tube amp stuff). Even when you don't notice the difference, your physical body doesn't react the same to these different types of simulii. Proof is that in order to "improve" digital imagery, they now tend to introduce curves and grain to make it more pleasant to look at than the harsh binarity and linearity of digital images.
 

perkeleellinen

Subscriber
Joined
Apr 14, 2008
Messages
2,906
Location
Warwickshire
Format
35mm
Some people appear happy creating art using older ways, perhaps they find it easier to articulate themselves with images rather than words. I won't judge a photographer by his sentences.

Art is not engineering, a photo created on film may be valid, a car designed on an abacus is not.

Some people write out their work by hand on paper and then pay for someone to type it onto a computer, that's how they work. Maybe others use type writers, perhaps staring at a screen kills their creativity, who knows, they work out what's best for them and it works for them. Writers are probably more articulate about this than photographers or engineers, at least I would hope so.

A spiritual connection to a process can indeed seem absurd. Especially to a rationalist. However, one of the great things about people is that they're all different and some really might do this spiritual thing - I don't know, but I do know that not everyone is like me.

My wife plays piano, a friend composes tunes using software. They both get a kick out of what they do but neither can understand the other's valorising of their machines. My wife in convinced that only a 'real' piano is a piano -she won't record her playing and edit it with software. My friend loves the potential of his computer and uploads screen grabs of his programs to facebook. I've yet to meet a sculptor who employs CAD/CAM.

Valorisation is every bit as modern as it is nostalgic.
 

JBrunner

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Dec 14, 2005
Messages
7,429
Location
PNdub
Format
Medium Format
"Ultimately it comes down to taste. It comes down to trying to expose yourself to the best things that humans have done and then try to bring those things in to what you're doing."

Spoken by he last guy in America who actually knew what the #@&* he was doing.
 

Aristophanes

Member
Joined
Mar 4, 2011
Messages
513
Format
35mm
So....you mean the good old days weren't so good after all? Hey, in 50 years, these will be the good old days and someone will be writing up how wonderful it was to carry an iPhone in bed, while now it is permanently up our asses and transmitting directly into our brains. Big hug! :smile:

Hipsters make a virtue of technology and experiences they themselves need were a part of. It can be really interesting to see a generation explore history thoughtfully, but it can come across as self-indulgent shopping through someone else's history instead of confronting your own reality.

You can do what you want with your iPhone :laugh:

I'm sure some sleep with their Leica's. On APUG there's sometimes a weird Olympus love-in going on.
 

Aristophanes

Member
Joined
Mar 4, 2011
Messages
513
Format
35mm
I didn't say that analog doesn't have any limitation and doesn't distort reality in its own way. As far as I know, on a molecular level, digital is still far behind what analog capture devices are capable of recording (Bayer filter for example). Weither you like it or not, analog is still much easier and more pleasant for the human brain to assimilate (think about how fatiguiing mp3 recordings are compared to hi-fi tube amp stuff). Even when you don't notice the difference, your physical body doesn't react the same to these different types of simulii. Proof is that in order to "improve" digital imagery, they now tend to introduce curves and grain to make it more pleasant to look at than the harsh binarity and linearity of digital images.

Lots of digital cameras have no Bayer filter. Digital is rapidly catching up to analog's theoretical limitations and will pass soon enough. In fact, in scientific and turnkey instrumentation, it already has by substantial margins.

That does not mean analog is not fun. Mixing chemicals is fun. Photoshop is not.

Show the empirical proof relating to digital audio "fatigue". I have heard many lousy CD's that's for sure, including horrendous audio engineering in the race for "loud". I've also heard the same on vinyl, which has its own serious weaknesses in fidelity. I've heard terrible sound at live performances, including unplugged ones!
 

perkeleellinen

Subscriber
Joined
Apr 14, 2008
Messages
2,906
Location
Warwickshire
Format
35mm
I have a friend who sleeps with his iPad, many of my students say their phone is their right hand - they never stop talking about them.

Aristophane's idea of "analogue irony" is interesting but it does require one to seek out the the sort of extreme cases that by no coincidence also draw journalists to them. It's a peculiar trait to worship the machine that helped you create art, one which I think is rather limited but appears more predominant on account of online news articles that seek this very thing to make good copy.
 

JBrunner

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Dec 14, 2005
Messages
7,429
Location
PNdub
Format
Medium Format
Lots of digital cameras have no Bayer filter. Digital is rapidly catching up to analog's theoretical limitations and will pass soon enough. In fact, in scientific and turnkey instrumentation, it already has by substantial margins.

Curious how that works, since analog audio (for example) at it's theoretical best would be an exact replication of the frequency and amplitude of the original moment, and all the information contained therein.

To my mind digital is about saving space and faithful replication. (I do use it) As the sample rate goes and the steps get smaller it more and more simply imitates an analog curve. Personally, I think digital will simply evolve back to a far superior analog than the one we know.
 

Lionel1972

Member
Joined
Oct 21, 2009
Messages
332
Location
France
Format
Multi Format
Emulsions are already what nano digital technology is dreaming about. With your bare eyes you can see millions more tones on an analog print than any digital can record and process. Hard to beat.
Digital audio fatigue is obvious once you experience the soothing of high-end analog equipment. If you can't objectively measure it, it means your measuring equipment or methode is not good enough. They used to say there is no evidence the Earth is not flat back in the day, remember?
 

Aristophanes

Member
Joined
Mar 4, 2011
Messages
513
Format
35mm
Curious how that works, since analog audio (for example) at it's theoretical best would be an exact replication of the frequency and amplitude of the original moment, and all the information contained therein.

To my mind digital is about saving space and faithful replication. (I do use it) As the sample rate goes and the steps get smaller it more and more simply imitates an analog curve. Personally, I think digital will simply evolve back to a far superior analog than the one we know.

A digital sensor is an analog device. The limitation has been the conversion at speed (bandwidth) compared to film, and the need to interpret the data due to inherent weaknesses in the sensor design. Film nailed the latter quite some time ago, but has other limitations, not the least of which is ISO and low-light application. Film still has superior density of information, but gets that density with the trade-off of simply needing more photons.

Sensor designs are constantly being upgraded preserving the waveform signal with greater, stepless fidelity with each generation. RAW, no Bayer filters, less processing, and lenses designed for the sensors (like Leica) will make for less reliance on the signal processor and more like analog, but with hugely variable ISO (per pixel even) amongst other advancements. Film hit its theoretical maximum and has other limitations, such as the cost and variables of processing.

It's just moot if one hates Photoshop, like I do. One thing I do agree with the article is that older analog processes force some discipline and formalism into the process. Locking into a linear process can be creatively liberating. You have a limited set of tools can free the imagination rather than shopping for new tools constantly. That's the essence, for example, of b/w photography. Something is removed from the visual and aesthetic toolkit.
 

MaximusM3

Member
Joined
Jul 11, 2010
Messages
754
Location
NY
Format
35mm RF
I'm sure some sleep with their Leica's. On APUG there's sometimes a weird Olympus love-in going on.

Ha, you see Aristophanes, you are an angry man. You cannot even see the humor and rather throw little zingers to get under people's skins. I don't know about anyone else, but I sleep very nicely with my wife and my love fest with any camera is simply to the extent of taking pictures and let it the spit out a negative so I can print it. And, discussing the virtues of a particular camera, or lens, in a forum, can be even fun and instructive once in a while. Of course, you find that strange as well.
 

clayne

Member
Joined
Sep 4, 2008
Messages
2,764
Location
San Francisc
Format
Multi Format
Secret digital-stroker, aka Aristophanes. You're completely ignoring the point of healthy limitations and non-linear curves yet again.

Say it with me:

Non-linear.
Non-linear.
Non-linear.

If you've shot film with any seriousness you'd understand the power of this.
 
OP
OP
Colin Corneau

Colin Corneau

Member
Joined
Nov 20, 2007
Messages
2,366
Location
Winnipeg MB Canada
Format
35mm RF
Anyway...internet trolls aside, I am happy the journalist in question (whom I'm also acquainted with) took the time to write an interesting piece about an interesting subject. Let's not forget that.

People can take or leave what they want out of that, but if nothing else it's good to be reminded that we still live in a world where people can have a variety of 'brushes' with which to paint their pictures with.
 

CGW

Member
Joined
Apr 19, 2010
Messages
2,896
Format
Medium Format
Helped a couple friends restore/rebuild a nice old letterpress last month. Type+ink+great paper=magic.
 
Joined
Jan 21, 2003
Messages
15,708
Location
Switzerland
Format
Multi Format
Helped a couple friends restore/rebuild a nice old letterpress last month. Type+ink+great paper=magic.

I visited a museum in Sweden where they still use the old letter presses to make things on order, like menus for restaurants, etc. Very interesting; they were even able to make a pretty good self sustaining business out of something where visitors to the museum can come and look at the machines, talk to the people working there, and be wowed by both the beautiful printed materials as well as the fairly pungent 'aroma' of the inks. Very interesting.
 

jscott

Member
Joined
Aug 19, 2010
Messages
113
Location
PNW
Format
Multi Format
... Proof is that in order to "improve" digital imagery, they now tend to introduce curves and grain to make it more pleasant to look at than the harsh binarity and linearity of digital images.

That's an excellent point. Remember back in the 1980's when those computer-generated drum machines came out to replace real drummers? The manufacturers soon found out that perfect note spacing sounded dead and uninteresting, so they programmed in a human-like randomness. Still, it doesn't sound like a human drummer; it's a computerized approximation of one. You won't notice the difference on a galloping horse.

And at some level, perhaps smaller than you can easily see, Photoshopped images don't look like film photography, they are just an approximation of it. A very elaborate and increasingly accurate approximation, but an approximation nonetheless.
 
Photrio.com contains affiliate links to products. We may receive a commission for purchases made through these links.
To read our full affiliate disclosure statement please click Here.

PHOTRIO PARTNERS EQUALLY FUNDING OUR COMMUNITY:



Ilford ADOX Freestyle Photographic Stearman Press Weldon Color Lab Blue Moon Camera & Machine
Top Bottom