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Neil Grant

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... I've been loaned one of these to test. I'm not sure how to turn it on. Is it possible to fire the shutter without a film in it?
It looks as though it hasn't been used for a long time, but may not have been used all that much (amateur owned). Can they acquire age-related focus problems like Hasselblads? How reliable are the electronics in these cameras? Somehow it seems rather clumsy compared to an RB 67.
 

abruzzi

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first, it needs a battery, so if it hasn't been used in a while, make sure the battery is good (itsin the bottom.) Second, normally, you can't fire the shutter until fit is advanced to the first frame. that usually requires film, but there is a trick to advancing the frame counter even without film. If you want an easier way to test fire, just take an old 120 spool with backing paper and load it and advance to the first frame.

Mine has been very reliable, but thats just an anecdote. I've never used a RB67, but I always got the impression that there were very few interlocks to keep you from screwing up. the P67 on the other hand operates like a large 35mm camera, and has all the same interlocks that a 35mm SLR from the same era has. I'm not aware of focus issues. The focusing screen is not user removable (the P67 II screen is removable), and it doesn't seem to sit on anything that will degrade and change the screen's position.

EDIT: oh, and there is no on-off switch for the shutter. There is for the metering prism through. It switches the prims on and it meters for 10 seconds then turns off again.
 
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Neil Grant

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..thanks. I shall test the camera with the 105mm lens (it also came with a 55mm and 200mm) at a wide aperture, and hand held. It has prism but no grip - what do you think a 'safe' speed would be?
 

BobD

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If I remember correctly:
Open the film door, press thumb on frame counter and twist it so it advances to at least the 1st frame and hold it there as you close the film door.

Pentax made a little tool for simplifying this, Usually called the 67 Key.
 

abruzzi

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I know the early bronicas had age related focusing problems, never heard of it with Hasselblad. In the Bronica S, S2, etc, the GG rests on a foam gasket, when the gasket rots away, the position of the GG changes.

@BobD is right about the trick to fool the camera into thinking there is film loaded. I was rarely successfull getting that to work, so I ran backing paper through it.

@Neil Grant - I did some handheld night shots wide open with the 105 and the 150 as 1/30, and the came out surprisingly good. The weight of the camera helps. but 1/125 usually comes out sharp for me. I don't currently have any of my P67 images online so I can't post at the moment, but it can take beautiful pictures.
 
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Neil Grant

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thanks, I've been able to use the frame counter method to fool the camera that a film is loaded. The shutter advances and, with a good battery, it fires normally. So, I can try it with film soon. Presumably, if it's not working there are neither parts nor technicians that can service/repair this camera?
 

gone

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There are still people that will fix yours. These are very reliable cameras from what everyone says, and the lenses are some of the best you can find. I almost bought one: probably could have handled the size and weight, but the shutter sounded like a rifle, so it went back on the camera store's shelf, where it looked like a giant among the 35mm cameras and TLR's they had up there. Boy, those stores are almost all gone now.
 

DREW WILEY

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Aging light seals on the P67 are inexpensive and relatively easy to replace. Opening the back to exchange film can be difficult if the related seal gets all gummy. But because the film plane is determined by a pressure back, this kind of aging issues will not affect the correct film plane per se. If the similar gasket material which cushions the pentaprism in place gets eroded over time, it might make critical focus a little harder.
I got a set of pre-cut replacement gasket strips on the web for under $10. Then some solvent and lot of Q-tips to remove any remaining old gasket material or goo, and you're ready for the self-adhesive replacement strips. Let those set for at least a day before closing the camera back up or using it. So far, this is the only maintenance issue I've ever had with my P67 system. And my oldest P67 body, still going strong after 45 years of hard use, hasn't needed any maintenance at all so far.

These tend to be very reliable camera with excellent optics. But I will admit that when you trip the shutter and the mirror whacks, it will shake a Richter scale meter at least three counties away. That's what the mirror lock-up is for.
 
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Neil Grant

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..the back is very difficult to open - there just seems to be remnants of sealing material left. Will the camera leak light in this condition? Maybe I should postpone the film test until I've redone the seals. The camera wasn't as noisy as I'd expected, nor did it seem to vibrate all that much.
 

abruzzi

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probably not. The grooves the back meshes with works pretty well, even without the sealing foam. When I first got mine ~5 years ago, it was similar--I had to pull the door release and while holding it, get my fingernails under the door and pop it. I shot a number of rolls without incident before replacing the seals. I bought the seal kit from Aki-Asahi for $12:

http://aki-asahi.com/store/html/Pentax67/LightSeal/Pentax67LightSeal.php

then the usual process of cleaning off the old goo with a toothpick and acetone (I think thats what I used, maybe alcohol.) then installing the new strips.
 

WilliamMarkey

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I almost bought a Pentax 6X7 some years back, but I could not see the full viewfinder due to my glasses. Do any other glasses-wearers have this problem or should I revisit this camera? Thanks in advance.
 

DREW WILEY

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My brother routinely focussed wearing glasses. He borrowed my P67 with meter prism for ten years, and loved it. I never asked him the specifics, but did print some of his color shots, which were certainly well focussed and composed. And if you don't mind looking downward, the deluxe chimney finder allows full screen view and has a fully adjustable built-in diopter.
 

WilliamMarkey

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My brother routinely focussed wearing glasses. He borrowed my P67 with meter prism for ten years, and loved it. I never asked him the specifics, but did print some of his color shots, which were certainly well focussed and composed. And if you don't mind looking downward, the deluxe chimney finder allows full screen view and has a fully adjustable built-in diopter.

Thank you!
 

flavio81

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I've never used a RB67, but I always got the impression that there were very few interlocks to keep you from screwing up. the P67 on the other hand operates like a large 35mm camera, and has all the same interlocks that a 35mm SLR from the same era has.

The RB67 pro-S (and pro-SD) have a ton of interlocks. They will baffle you if you don't read the instruction manual beforehand.

The original RB67 (non "pro-S") does lack some interlocks.
 

flavio81

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..thanks. I shall test the camera with the 105mm lens (it also came with a 55mm and 200mm) at a wide aperture, and hand held. It has prism but no grip - what do you think a 'safe' speed would be?

I'd advise to get the wooden grip, My P67 didn't have the grip and sometimes i got camera shake at 1/125. Which was the main reason I sold it. I am confident that the people who own the big wooden grip have no complaints of camera shake, since no doubt the grip will hold the shutter steady.

And, by the way, the troublesome vibrations there aren't caused by the mirror (which has a very clever swing movement), but by the focal plane shutter itself. It's a huge shutter with a lot of energy.

So get the wooden grip and be happy.

I wouldn't worry about the camera electronics -- this is a Pentax, a reliable machine. And the camera electronics are fairly simple, nothing that couldn't be fixed by simply cleaning out some contacts or resoldering some points.
 

DREW WILEY

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The grip has nothing to do with internal camera shake. It just makes it easier to hold in certain circumstances. The mirror slap itself can be a factor except at higher shutter speeds where the shutter curtain opens and closes before the mirror hits the top. That's why there's a mirror lockup feature on all but the oldest models. They knew what they were doing. Of course, mirror lockup requires a tripod too. But it completely solves the "shake" issue. Otherwise, it's just a problem of being unable to hand hold the camera steady due to its overall mass, especially when longer lenses are used. That fact can be proven by simple with vs without tripod comparison shots. But that in turn necessitates a tripod worthy of the task and not a toy one. I get flack all the time from people complaining how a certain 67 lenses aren't all that sharp, simply because they're using some kind of toy tripod with a ridiculous ball head. With the 300 teles, I use the same big wooden Ries tripod setup as for 8x10 work, and it makes a huge difference in image sharpness.
 
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Mirrors up (tripoded 135mm macro on extension tubes)
Ektar 100, I think

_p67.jpg


The wooden grip is great for handheld in portrait orientation while still being able to use the focus ring..
 

DREW WILEY

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I sure clung tightly onto that wooden grip the other day handholding a shot off a bridge where a tripod couldn't be used. The P67 was once popular for handheld aerial photography, where those grips were especially handy.
 

flavio81

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The grip has nothing to do with internal camera shake. It just makes it easier to hold in certain circumstances. The mirror slap itself can be a factor except at higher shutter speeds where the shutter curtain opens and closes before the mirror hits the top. That's why there's a mirror lockup feature on all but the oldest models. They knew what they were doing. Of course, mirror lockup requires a tripod too. But it completely solves the "shake" issue. Otherwise, it's just a problem of being unable to hand hold the camera steady due to its overall mass, .

Hi Drew.

I did use mirror-lock-up on most of the shots i took with my P67. After all, it's really easy to compose, focus, and then flip the MLU button just before taking a shot. And some of those MLU-enabled handheld shots got camera shake at 1/60 and (gasp) 1/125.

I stand for what i wrote here and in other forums -- the mirror isn't the problem. The mirror has a clever swing movement that minimizes shocks. The problem is the shutter itself. It's a big amount of mass that moves laterally.

Mirror lock up won't solve the "shake" problem, thus.

As for "Otherwise, it's just a problem of being unable to hand hold the camera steady due to its overall mass", i fully disagree. In my view it's the opposite -- the heavier the camera, the easier to get steadiness at low speeds. I owned the P67 and the RB67 at the same time. The RB67 is a far heavier machine. Well, i got consistently good (sharp) shots at 1/15 speed with the RB67. It simply doesn't have shutter vibrations (because of the leaf shutter), and no mirror vibrations (because of the centrifugal mirror speed governor).

Thus, I sold the Pentax 67 and kept the RB67.

When I researched forums for people with the camera shake problem on the Pentax 6x7/67, it seemed that the people who used the wooden grip had no complaints. And now it seems obvious -- the grip would stabilize and cancel out the lateral forces that happen when the curtain is fired. As you said, Drew, the guys at Asahi Optical "knew what they were doing", thus they marketed that wooden handle, which is ridiculously HUGE. But it needs to be that way. Note also that the handle protrudes far in front of the camera, this is intentional for achieving the necessary stability on all axis.
 

DREW WILEY

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Well, it's all relative; depends on what you're comparing it too. My older brother at one time sold Rollei MF SLR gear, among other professional lines. He'd demonstrate the softness of the shutter by placing a camera on a solid table, setting a dime ON EDGE atop it, then would use a cable release to trip the shutter. The dime didn't even move. And he owned a couple of SL66 kits himself. If you had done the same thing with a P67, the dime would have landed in the next county. But he preferred the ergonomics of my Pentax 67, and once borrowed it an entire decade, and even got crisper shots than with his Rollei, perhaps due to the more intuitive viewfinder. I printed some of those shots, and don't think MF work even got much tighter with respect to the available films of that decade.

As far as the big handle goes, I never routinely used one, nor did my brother. He alway used a Kenro gyro mounted to the camera when shooting from a chopper or airplane. He had a small plane flying license. The only reason I have one of those handles is for sake of not clumsily dropping the camera with a big heavy 300EDIF lens on it. I already mentioned how I use a large Ries wooden tripod for that specific application. But I have successfully shot that big lens without tripod, rifle-style, by rolling up a coat and placing it atop a car roof or fence railing, and resting the camera on that for sake of a relatively high shutter speed. Otherwise, at least in the way I use the system, I have seen zero practical evidence of shutter interference with sharpness, and I print about as crisp as it gets.

I do know a specialist in extreme telephoto work who mentioned a problem with the shutter. That was way back. He would know, having been both a Pentax and Celestron dealer at the time. But in more recent years, the combination of P67's and long EDIF lenses was popular for extremely nitpicky widefield astrophotography (comet hunters, etc), which is about as demanding an application one could think of. There were even vac back modifications for 220 film available for the P67 for sake of optimal image plane sharpness. But those kinds of folks were also using clock-drive "tripods" hauled in trailers and costing 50K or more, or sometimes in conjunction with little private observatories costing several hundred K. It's all out there in terms of their own forum discussions. But instantaneous opening and closing is admittedly a different ballgame than hours-long exposures. The only advantage the later P67 ii had was the fact the mirror lockup didn't drain the battery over long exposures like the previous MLU units, or that handful of early lenses not yet up to present expectations.

My own experience with the big 300EDIF for terrestrial work fully complements just how superb that particular series of lenses is - the Mercedes Benz of MF telephotos as far as I'm concerned. But you could hypothetically argue that the sheer mass of those big lenses helps to dampen any shutter issue; and you might be right. But I get equally crisp results with their later wide-angle lenses using MLU. The old advice was don't shoot them between f/60 and f/8 where the vibration is allegedly worst; but based on thousand of my own shots, I find no practical visual evidence whatsoever for that old wives tale. But I've never owned a pre-MLU unit.

Nice hearing from you and your own opinion. Now that I'm retired, I've gotten into MF photography a lot more than before. I basically concentrated on LF sheet film work for four intervening decades. And for handheld applications, I mainly use my Fuji 6X9 RF's instead of the P67. The last two weeks I carried both systems in my pack, with the Pentax mainly being used for telephoto shots. Hoping to print a couple of those later this week.
 
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MattKing

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Inertia works both ways - it makes things resistant to movement, but once they are moving, it makes them resistant to being stopped.
 
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Neil Grant

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...the camera (6x7 MLU) is undergoing 'field tests' for focus accuracy. Initial tests showed light tightness, proper frame spacing and wafer thin dof with it's 105mm lens. Also, some frames were blurry due to camera shake. Of all the 120 cameras I have used, this is the most difficult to load by a long way. The fresh spool has to be 'just right' for the 'dog' to engage with the cutout in the spool.
 

flavio81

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Well, it's all relative; depends on what you're comparing it too. My older brother at one time sold Rollei MF SLR gear, among other professional lines. He'd demonstrate the softness of the shutter by placing a camera on a solid table, setting a dime ON EDGE atop it, then would use a cable release to trip the shutter. The dime didn't even move. And he owned a couple of SL66 kits himself. If you had done the same thing with a P67, the dime would have landed in the next county.

Hahahhaa!! Loved that comparison.

But he preferred the ergonomics of my Pentax 67, and once borrowed it an entire decade, and even got crisper shots than with his Rollei, perhaps due to the more intuitive viewfinder

Yes, sounds sensible. The ergonomics of the Pentax 67 are very good indeed. And the shutter sound is very satisfying.[/QUOTE]
 
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