Pentacon Six TL slow speed problem

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kl122002

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I am lucky to have a Pantencon six with w MC Biometar 80/2.8 in low price (US$ 50 🥳 ) . The lens is fine and clear , while the camera seems have been dropped so the frame counter needs some attention. The camera works fine with the high speed and B but not the slow speed down to 1sec. I followed the youtube/Rick 's page and opened the top cover , having cleaned most of the old oils at the left side (under the speed dial) then I have also used new lubricant (Moeblus 9010) for the timing gears . The slow speed worked while testing and I am vey happy.

But after sitting there for a night the slow speed is down again. I can see the 1st curtain not open well. So I wind it up again and giving it few times for testing the camera is back to normal.
Is that means there are some places I missed and I should clean as well ? I know the Right side have wheels to drive the curtains and a level under that connect to the slow speed gear . Do I have to clean them as well ? What lubricant should I use ?
 

Andreas Thaler

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I can only say something fundamental about it.

There should be a mechanism for adjusting the shutter. These can be screws or gears. If you have access to the service manual, this should be described there.

Old grease/oil should always be removed before a new lubrication.

For mechanical parts that are subject to heavy loads, the lubricant tends to be more viscous.

For parts with light loads or those that move quickly, use a light lubricant. There should also be information about this in the service manual.
 
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kl122002

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I can only say something fundamental about it.

There should be a mechanism for adjusting the shutter. These can be screws or gears. If you have access to the service manual, this should be described there.

Old grease/oil should always be removed before a new lubrication.

For mechanical parts that are subject to heavy loads, the lubricant tends to be more viscous.

For parts with light loads or those that move quickly, use a light lubricant. There should also be information about this in the service manual.

I have found the repair manual but there is no other cures except old oil might have still in somewhere

The manual says using watchmaker's oil, "Fett 207" (Ceritol M 28 T4) . I don't think it is still available today. Do you have any idea of its equivalent ? I don't think Moebius 9010/8000/8040 are the right oil .
 

Andreas Thaler

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I have found the repair manual but there is no other cures except old oil might have still in somewhere

The manual says using watchmaker's oil, "Fett 207" (Ceritol M 28 T4) . I don't think it is still available today. Do you have any idea of its equivalent ? I don't think Moebius 9010/8000/8040 are the right oil .

These are my two universalists with whom I do most of the work:

IMG_2023-11-14-200651.jpg


The German word „Fett“ means „grease“ in English.
 
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kl122002

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These are my two universalists with whom I do most of the work:

View attachment 353432

The German word „Fett“ means „grease“ in English.

That has enlightened me ! Thank you so much!

I know Nyoil for years but it is not available in my local market, so I just keep using Moebius for quick moving parts & clockwork gears (e.g. self timer) and Ardent fishing reel grease for the slow moving part.
 
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kl122002

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A bit update here and I think I managed to locate the problem. It is about the grease. I need grease on the catch (from the lever bar) to the up& lower shutter drive wheels, also on the another end of bar to the timing gears.

I tried it with Moly lube, it does it job especially with high speed ( particularly 1/125 or higher) but the grease won't stay long after few attempts, especially after changing of shutter speed (from 1s to higher and then back to 1s). It looks like the lubes being driven out from the catch and so it stuck at the middle again.

what grease would you recommend , that could be on the metal wheels while doing the lube function? 🤨 Should I go with soft (less likely?) or firm grease?
 

Andreas Thaler

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Thomas Tomosy, author of highly regarded books to camera repair, recommends for slow moving parts (rewind shaft, advance gears, charging shafts, cams, rack and pinions) light grease, silicone grease, light lithium grease.

I once lubricated the gears of a Canon F Power Winder with Liqui Moly Lube LM 47. A rapidly rotating gear threw off the grease.

IMG_4260.jpeg


IMG_4261.jpeg



Thorough cleaning should always be carried out before lubrication.

If you try using a different grease, I would remove the previous grease so that the substances don't mix and the lubricating properties change. I would clean metal gearing with Zippo Lighter Fluid.
 
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kl122002

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Thomas Tomosy, author of highly regarded books to camera repair, recommends for slow moving parts (rewind shaft, advance gears, charging shafts, cams, rack and pinions) light grease, silicone grease, light lithium grease.

I once lubricated the gears of a Canon F Power Winder with Liqui Moly Lube LM 47. A rapidly rotating gear threw off the grease.

View attachment 353764

View attachment 353765


Thorough cleaning should always be carried out before lubrication.

If you try using a different grease, I would remove the previous grease so that the substances don't mix and the lubricating properties change. I would clean metal gearing with Zippo Lighter Fluid.


Surely will do.
I mainly use Zippo lighter fluid for cleaning . Before that I use Ronson, but it seems it has discontinued, I miss Ronsol since it is actually doing better than Zippo . The moly lube has been cleaned up already this morning and now it's ready for the new grease

The book from Tomosy are great . I have a physical copy of it but I read too much and it gets worn after years. I am glad digital Kindle copy is now available well . Most of my skills are actually from there.
 

Andreas Thaler

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Surely will do.
I mainly use Zippo lighter fluid for cleaning . Before that I use Ronson, but it seems it has discontinued, I miss Ronsol since it is actually doing better than Zippo . The moly lube has been cleaned up already this morning and now it's ready for the new grease

The book from Tomosy are great . I have a physical copy of it but I read too much and it gets worn after years. I am glad digital Kindle copy is now available well . Most of my skills are actually from there.

The books are highly valued because they are out of stock. Especially Tomosy's titles, which are not available electronically.

A good investment 😎

A newer publication by Michio Ozeki:

Let’s Try! - Repair and Maintenance of Cameras: Japan Hobby Tool https://a.co/d/dMmyMa7

Please let us know how you get on.
 
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kl122002

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The books are highly valued because they are out of stock. Especially Tomosy's titles, which are not available electronically.

A good investment 😎

A newer publication by Michio Ozeki:

Let’s Try! - Repair and Maintenance of Cameras: Japan Hobby Tool https://a.co/d/dMmyMa7

Please let us know how you get on.

I have seen that Japanese book as well , it is mostly about Japanese camera. Would definitely collect it later .

Did a lot of trials last night.
I took the whole mechanic unit out and checked. I am glad the curtains looks great , no holes , no molds.

Surprisingly some screws are actually have lost its function and cannot keep in place. I believe it has been serviced before , probably not very early from the stuff I see inside. I can see some original slotted screws were replaced with modern philips screws, some washers (the brass rings) seems rusted and I believe the previous technician has tried hard find the replacement but no luck , so there are some DIY odd rings there. I think Pentacon was originally using washers to keep and hold the mirror box in place and keep it level with both sides and they were glued to there. But they just come off after all these years and I cannot local its exact original position.

I flushed the mechanic gears with lighter fluid and cleaned out lots of dirt from the bottom part. Looks like the all dirt have gone to there right below the film & shutter winding big wheels. The tissue paper the absorbed all fluids and dirt also showing there were lots of different kinds of oil been used there. The light yellow and blue should be the Moebius watch oil , and there are some gray-brown stuff has been flushed out and I have no idea what they are. Black dirts are mostly likely the dried grease inside.

After that, I lubed the gap between second curtain wheel and the supper base place with Moebius 9010 , added little moly lube on the 2nd curtain catch on the wheel. It works , all stuff just come smooth. 🥳 1/125 looks much better.

On the other side for the timing gears, I wonder whether it needs lube or just run in dry. I flushed it with light fluid first and blew out all lubes.
My first try was with Moebius 8020, no success. I can hear the sound of gears get soft but eventually paused at the mid-way.
Then after flushing I go with 9010, and it doesn't improve.
So I just let it run in dry now . I don't have the shutter tester but the 1s sounds accurate to my ears.

I am not sure whether it is working it is right way but so far it is working right now, 🤔? Will try it again later and see how it works.

-----------------
I was too concentrated last night and forgot to take photos , but I try to summarize my findings here from this very early success(?) in words,

  • Many Pentacon Six seems have been serviced (look at the film type/ speed reminder wheels with picking marks ) form what I could see on ebay .
  • Be extreme caution with the washers. Some are vey small and fragile, some just look like as if it has been glued but it would come off.
  • I used watchmaker's oiler (Bergeon) to do the oiling job at the joints, mostly the Green or the Yellow oiler. It is a bit time consuming but I like to control the amount of oil that I apply.
  • There are some sealed screws which should be done by the factory, like the timing gears. Mine has green seal and I see some has black as well. They are not oil grease and can not be washed by lighter fluid. And most importantly they should not be adjusted unless necessary.
  • The timing delay gear , Left side of the camera under the speed dial, is driven by the lever bar behind the focusing screen and act as the catch of the delay release of 2nd curtain. After taking out the whole mechanic form the body, You can see it has been hold by 1 screw at the middle. The bar has be springy with very little force when it is clear from old oil and dirt. This bar is important is handling all speed by communicating on both sides of the camera.
  • The high speed delay (1/1000 - 1/125) is actually controlled by a stronger spring at the Left bottom corner. It connects with a catch complex component next to it. This unit activate when the dial is on 1/100 -1/125. And this complex should be oil free , or use the lightest lube.
  • The mid - slow speed (1/60 - 1s) uses the timing gear, and in slow speed (down to 1s) will let the escape wheel joining the pallet for timing. There is another spring below , next to the catch complex, that control this timing part and also driven by the lever bar when using mid-slow speed
  • For the Right hand side , the counter dial is connected with top plate buy the circular spring, sometimes it might got loosen, jammed with other parties next to it.
  • The shutter curtains is controlled by 2 wheels are the same position (upper - 1st curtain & lower - 2nd curtain) with the most upper driver part as 1 unit . The driver would driving back all curtains to initial position during film winding. As for the normal action, the upper wheel first spins, then the lower wheel follows . The lever bar has a catch with 2nd curtain act as delaying release of 2nd curtain. I would apply grease like moly lobe to the inner part of the catch . And the joins would use lighter lubes ( here I used RC model bearing oil) , right under the gap between driver & the upper wheel , and also the gap between bottom plate and the lower wheel.
 
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kl122002

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Anyone got the idea of the shutter curtain's tension? I am reading the repair manual and it said

Adjust the curtain groups to the following tension by rotation of the star wheel :
1st curtain 110 cmp
2nd curtain 120 cmp
as measured with vibrating reed in winding direction of the curtain pins .

What does "cmp" means ? The "clicks" of the star wheel ?

I am working on another P6 that with a faulty shutter by a foreign screw . I need to re-tension the shutter but the counting clicks seems not right? It makes the 1s goes too fast (sounds like 1/2-1/4s).
 
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