PC TEA - The new frontier?

[sanking]

I guess I created a monster. A long dead one at that. I think it does not stink so badly when it is made at the lower temoerature. I know it is not nearly so dark. That color is due to the fact that TEA darkens with heating.

You might like it better as an A-B stock with the A being same as PC-TEA but using propylene glycol as the solvent. You may then use TEA as the B or you may use the B part of PMK or you may experiment with various amounts of sodium carbonate. Nicholas Twist uses a teaspoon each of sodium carbonate and sodium bicarbonate to the liter.

In either TEA or glycol the life of the A solution is very long.

I have not experienced recently any strong discoloration of either -TEA or glycol solutions. What I try to do is mix things that go into solution with difficulty (bromide, metabisulfite, etc.) at a very high temperature, say 250 F or higher, then allow the temperature of the solution to drop to about 160F to 170F before adding the reducers (phenidione, pyrocatechin, pyrogallol, etc.). Ascorbic acid can be mixed at a very high temperature without any discoloring, but it mixes just as easily at about 170F so I usually wait for the solution to cool before adding it as well.

Sandy

 

[psvensson]

What else was in your developer?

It was fake PC-TEA, mixed on the spot from powdered AA, pure TEA and phenidone in rubbing alchohol. Do you think the alchohol could be to blame? At the regular phenidone/AA ration, I used 1.25 ml of alcohol to 250 ml of working solution. At 1:10 ration, it was 5 ml.

Which brings me to another point: I didn't use 8 times as much phenidone, but 4 times as much. Sorry!

 

[fhovie]

I mixed up some PC-TEA following directions I got from somewhere in this forum awhile ago. I heated it to 250 and while everything mixed up OK, it turned a very dark brown in color (like black coffee almost) and smells horrible, even now when I dilute it for developing. It works perfectly well as announced, and gives me good negs, but about drives me out of the darkroom with the odor.

Is this characteristic? If so, I'll go back to my TEA-less existence. Is it the result of over-heating (I notice that Gainer's post mentions heating it to 160 degrees.)? Not only is the smell bad, but it persists in the darkroom for a day or more.

Larry

I mixed up the DS-14 listed in the formula section - heated the TEA up to 250 and added all the Ascorbic acid and the Phenidone and it turned a pale yellow and has no smell at all. Humph ...

 

[Tom Hoskinson]

I mixed up the DS-14 listed in the formula section - heated the TEA up to 250 and added all the Ascorbic acid and the Phenidone and it turned a pale yellow and has no smell at all. Humph ...

Try it again! You're looking for deep black and evil smelling stuff!

 

[fhovie]

Perhaps it was the brand of tea I was using - is Lipton more evil than trader joes?? - maybe it is that I used the microwave ... no evil can enter the chamber of ionizing radiation?

 

[Tom Hoskinson]

Well - I used a hot plate and mine looks pretty much like your description - light color and no stink. I don't know what I'm doing wrong...

 

[sanking]

Well - I used a hot plate and mine looks pretty much like your description - light color and no stink. I don't know what I'm doing wrong...

OK, let's shoot for the stars. The first person to mix up a solution in -TEA that approximates the foul odor of Kodak Brown Toner gets an autographed copy of my favorite Pepe le pue cartoon.

All entries should go to Pat Gainer since he is responsible for starting this smelly business.

Sandy

 

[fhovie]

So now it is Pat's fault ..... I would like to get a copy of that cool book; Modern Photographic Processing - hey - there is a used one on e-bay for $696 - tears and all. How does that become a reference guide? - I told my wife I want one for Christmas. Of course a nice Dorf would also be good - The B&J is getting depressing - I am ready for a real camera! ... Well - a bit off track there, Sandy - I just developed an 8x10 sheet of TRI-X in your fab Pyrocat HD - great stuff! thanks!

 

[Maine-iac]

Nicholas Twist uses a teaspoon each of sodium carbonate and sodium bicarbonate to the liter.

I have sometimes added a tsp. of borax along with a tsp. of carbonate the the PC formula to get a buffering effect. Can't say I noticed any real difference with or without. I presume the bicarbonate exerts a similar buffering effect to the carbonate?

Larry

 

[gainer]

OK, let's shoot for the stars. The first person to mix up a solution in -TEA that approximates the foul odor of Kodak Brown Toner gets an autographed copy of my favorite Pepe le pue cartoon.

All entries should go to Pat Gainer since he is responsible for starting this smelly business.

Sandy

If I go commercial with a PC-TEA mess I will call it either Stinkinol or Roadkillol. That should sell a bunch of it. It migh even keep the raccoons out of your corn patch. They'll go mad trying to wash their hands.

 

[sanking]

It migh even keep the raccoons out of your corn patch. They'll go mad trying to wash their hands.

Those little fellows are going to be very surprised when the -TEA solution solidifies on their paws!!

But, more to the point. Today, using the Rollo-TEA formula that I introduced on another thread, I set out to see, 1) if I could make a solution that was very dark and smelly, and 2) if the dark color and smell made any difference in results.

For the first condition I used fairly old pyrogallol and phenidone solutions, and mixed everything at or around 250ºF. Sure enough, the final solution was quite dark, rather like light coffee, and very odiferous. In fact, the "One who must be Obeyed" pronounced in no uncertain terms that the kitchen microwave would not be used in the future for such work.

Then, after escaping from "The One" I ran a test with the colored and smelly solution, which involved exposing and developing an FP4+ negative, using procedures identical to those used with the original Rollo-TEA solution (which was very clear and had no smell).

Finally, I measured the densities of the negatives and plotted their curves. Result. The dark and smelly solution gave virtually the same results as the clear solution with no smell.

You draw your own conclusions. What I figure is that, 1) pyrogallol and phenidone in powder form last a very long time, and 2) too much heat causes a lot of smell and color with this formula, but does not affect the final results.

That should not be construed to mean that excessive heat would not affect the results with other formulas!!!


Sandy

 

[gainer]

You are lucky, Sandy. My one who was to be obeyed passed away several years ago after a brave battle with ovarian cancer. We were in cahoots in many of the perverted things I did with kitchen appliances. Once she used the oven to dry some clay we found for an art project at West Virginia University. This was in the early days of our marriage when we were both students, she in the Arts and Sciences, I in Aeronautical Engineering. Cherish what you have so that if you don't have it some day, you can cherish the memories.

 

[sanking]

Pat,

I am very sorry to hear of your loss. Having lived with one woman virtually all of my adult life I can understand how it must feel.

However, though she is generally tolerant my wife draws the line when it comes to cooking things in the kitchen microwave. She knows from past experience that this often comes to no good. Back in the days when I built sail boats I put a piece of mahogany in the microwave to dry out so I could measure the moisture content to make sure it would glue well, but accidentally set the time on two hours. I went outside and forgot about it. It would be hard to describe how much smoke came into the house from that event, to say nothing of the fact that the white inside of the microwave was turned to a dark brown color that could never be removed.

Still, she has always supported my photographic obsessions and just today informed me that my Christmas present is something photographic that was purchased from the family of a gentlemen who worked with Werner Von Braun as an engineer at NASA. I don't have any idea what the item may be other than that it is a camera of German origin and from the 60s, but since engineer types usually go for precision I am hoping for the best, say a Leica M3.

Sandy

 

[fhovie]

As the world turns ....

Just processed 2 more rolls in PC-TEA - TRI-X @ 1600 for 14 minutes (the time listed for XTOL1:1) and HP5 @ 1600 for 18 minutes same calculation. The densities are very appropriate for the exposures I made .... BUT! I am used to the HP5 having finer grain when pushed - and The HP5 gave me grain similar to TRI-X in PMK - Very coarse. The TRI-X on the other hand was beatiful - It printed nicely on grade 2 for very contrasty scenes (Ice scating out doors in bright sunlight - probably 8 or 9 stops) and the grain was beautiful even at enlargements up to 16x20 (from a 6x9 neg) The HP5 on the other hand I had to print on grade 1 and keep the enlargement small for the grain. I know I got better HP5 pushes out of XTOL.


So ... Do I use something other than 50:1 and how do I change the time? Or should I just not use HP5 to push in PC-TEA? Any ideas??

 

[gainer]

The fact that you had to print on grade 1 is a clue. With some developers, it is hard to get such contrast out of HP5+. Generally, it is better to develop normally and get more contrast if needed from the printing.

Why did you have to push a wide range scene, if you don't mind my asking. Didn't you get a lot of density above what you needed for shadow detail? I have used HP5+ almost exclusively in 35 mm with very fine grain at box speed, but I have not tried pushing it. Just curious.

I don't really know which would be better, but I would try 1+25 dilution before giving up. You could also try adding a little TEA to the working solution to give more contrast at 1+50 and normal time. 1 + 1+ 50, PC-TEA+TEA+water, should gain a fair amount of activity.

 

[rjr]

Sandy,

"Still, she has always supported my photographic obsessions and just today informed me that my Christmas present is something photographic that was purchased from the family of a gentlemen who worked with Werner Von Braun as an engineer at NASA. I don't have any idea what the item may be other than that it is a camera of German origin and from the 60s, but since engineer types usually go for precision I am hoping for the best, say a Leica M3."

To me that sound much more like a Agfa Clack. ;-)

Dead Link Removed

 

[sanking]

Sandy,


To me that sound much more like a Agfa Clack. ;-)

Dead Link Removed

Well, the gift did not turn out be to be the Leica M3 in mint condition that I had dreamed of, but it was not an Agfa Clack either!! It is a 35mm Nikon SLR , autoexposure but not autofocus, with two zoom Nikkor lenses, everything in Mint condition. Now I have to devise a strategy to use enough 35mm film to justify the gift.

Sandy

 

[gainer]

Use it for pictures of people and pets and small things. Carry it with you even when you are using a view camera. Potential pictures will arise spontaneously and be gone before you can set up the view. The view camera causes you to limit the number of shots you take. With 35 mm you can capture each slight nuance and sort them out later without worrying about wasting lots of money on film.

Don't let anyone tell you that you can't be both kinds of photographer and still be artistic.

 

[Flotsam]

I always carry a 35mm when shooting LF. When the big camera is set up and waiting for the light or some clouds to move into position, I run around shooting 35mm.

 

[MikeS]

You might want to check your supply of Vitamin C. I had mixed up some PC-TEA, as well as some MC-TEA (used Metol while waiting for my phenidone to arrive) using vitamin C capsules I bought at a vitamin store as my source of vitamin C. In both cases, as soon as I added the C the solution turned a dark red color, and when the solution cooled it was VERY thick.

Tonight I mixed up some PC-TEA using Vit-C I got from The Chemistry Store http://www.thechemistrystore.com and it turned out a pale yellow in color as others have said theirs was, and seems to not be as thick as the other batches were (it's not totally cooled off, so I'm not real sure).

I had also found that using PC-TEA at the recommended 1:50 dilution wasn't working well for me, I started using 1:25 with the same times recommended for 1:50, so perhaps the C in the capsules wasn't as strong as it should have been, or something. I just got thru developing 6 shots of Plus-X (PXT) in the new batch for 8 minutes, and they look MUCH nicer than my previous attempts with PC-TEA and I see why a lot of folks like this developer!

-Mike Schiller

 

[gainer]

I have recently learned that some Vitamin C may not be ascorbic acid, but dehydroascorbic acid. The difference to the body is that the dehydroascorbic acid more easily passes through cell walls as well as the brain blood barrier. The body converts it to ascorbic acid. After it has done its job as antioxidant it becomes dehydroascorbic acid and it excreted. Sounds weird, anf I may not have it exactly right, but the point is that dehydroascorbic acid is the end product in film developing and is no longer useful as there is nothing in these solutions that will regenerate it.

One person said the compound listed on the label of a bottle of Vitamin C tablets was C6H6O6. Ascorbic acid is C6H8O6. Either it or its mirror image, erythorbic acid, work in developers, but the erythorbic acid is not vitamin C.

Another form of Vitamin C that is popular now is ester-C. The bottle I have contains calcium ascorbate, which is a no-no because it is not very soluble in water and precipitates like h--l when carbonate is the alkali.

 

[fhovie]

Isn't Sodium Ascorbate also considered "Vitamin C" - I use this chemical quite a bit as well both for alternative process developers and for MYTOL. I don't think it is interchangable ... wrong PH

 

[gainer]

Isn't Sodium Ascorbate also considered "Vitamin C" - I use this chemical quite a bit as well both for alternative process developers and for MYTOL. I don't think it is interchangable ... wrong PH

Yes. As long as it is the L-ascorbate it is vitamin C. If it D-ascorbate it has little or no value as vitamin C but works fine for developing. There may be a problem with dissolving it in glycol or TEA. I haven't tried. It also seems to oxidize more rapidly in powder form than the acid. It smells like brown sugar when it does.

 

[Maine-iac]

You might want to check your supply of Vitamin C. I had mixed up some PC-TEA, as well as some MC-TEA (used Metol while waiting for my phenidone to arrive) using vitamin C capsules I bought at a vitamin store as my source of vitamin C. In both cases, as soon as I added the C the solution turned a dark red color, and when the solution cooled it was VERY thick.

-Mike Schiller

I'm guessing that the Vitamin C in capsules either has some added ingredients to keep it in capsule form, or is, as you guessed, a different potency. It's better to get your Vitamin C (other than from the chemistry store, which is fine) from a health-food or natural-food store in a powdered or crystalline form. I've been doing this for years with good results. Sometimes, it may say that it has rose hips added, which in my experience, makes no difference. The rose hips are also powdered and sometimes precipitate out at the bottom of the developer as tiny bits, but with no discernible effect on the development process.

I bought two bottles of Vitamin C powder (with rose hips) before going to France ten years ago. Although I sometimes used HC-110 in the early years there, I've been concocting and using my own Gainer-inspired Phenidone, Vitamin C formula almost exclusiively for the past five or six years. I'm just now getting into the second bottle I purchased, and it's still working just fine.

Larry