Paterson Auto print washer

[rmolson]

Paterson Auto Print washer

I just got a new Paterson Auto Print washer, the 10z12 size. I had one once before so I know how to set up and operate it But the new one does not oscillate. I have checked for all the usual problems, tight fits, not too much pressure ,cleared lines in the plunger, etc .It almost seems as though either the ball is too small and the water goes around it instead of pushing it or the base leaks and reduces the water pressure to the plunger assembly.
The unit will wash prints just fine without the oscillation with a simple trickle of water going in.
Anyone have any experience with problems with this unit?
But like the man said “whenever someone says it’s not the money it’s the principle, it’s the money!”

 

[Konical]

Good Afternoon,

I have used the Paterson, although it was some years ago. The plunger device seems to be a bit tricky to get operating correctly. Sometimes, an initial push on the basket will do the trick. Experimentation with the water flow will probably be necessary. The unit I have will operate correctly, but it is a free replacement from the distributor because the one I originally bought simply wouldn't function properly. ( I sent a video tape showing the non-functionality of the original unit and asked for advice; a few days later, the replacement showed up.)

Konical

 

[craigclu]

I read many years ago somewhere that the oscillation actually hindered the settling out of residuals and that operating without the motion or tuning to an absolute minimum was actually better performing. I went through some thorough testing back then and determined that it was at least as efficient without the motion but couldn't find a real difference in practice. I dropped something on the hook-up connector some years later and now simply attach a hose to one lip and let a very minimal stream enter on one end and that also tests well. From my experience, I wouldn't knock myself out getting the fixture to function.

 

[Kirk Keyes]

I read many years ago somewhere that the oscillation actually hindered the settling out of residuals and that operating without the motion or tuning to an absolute minimum was actually better performing.

This is BS - there are no residuals to "settle out". All the fixer that is washing out of the paper is fully dissolved into the wash water and it does not, will not, can not settle out.

That said, I have one from the 1980s and I don't worry about it oscillating or not. I just make sure the air bubbles that form on the surface of the prints are knoched off every once in a while.

 

[craigclu]

The exit in these is at the bottom end of the side away from the entry. When I read this, it seemed logical that agitation disrupted the flow to the exit point. In testing, I could find no difference and decided not to fret about trying to keep the basket in motion and what cycle speed might be best, etc. The OP seemed to be dealing with issues related to this and I simply thought that sharing my experiences with this washer might assist him in deciding a course of action. Rock On......

 

[michaelbsc]

Paterson Auto Print washer

Anyone have any experience with problems with this unit?

I find that mine is a little stubborn to get oscillating, but then it runs fine so long as I stand there and look at it. When I turn my back it will oscillate for 5-20 minutes before getting stuck again.

I think the problem is that the molded plastic plunger doesn't have quite as predictable coefficient of friction as hoped in the original design. The static friction with the basket stopped is much more difficult to overcome than the dynamic motion friction while the plunger is activly moving. But so long as there is sufficient rebound inertial energy at the end of travel there's no problem continuing the oscillation. The rebound effectivly 'taps' the carriage to get it moving again.

I also think the air bells that form on the paper change the weight characteristics, and therefore the moment of inertia imparted to the rebound at the limit of travel, which leads to occassional stopping after it looks like it's 'going good.'

In my mind the worst part about when it stops is that I no longer have a visual queue that something is happening. If I don't see something moving I'm apted to pull a 'senior moment' and walk away leaving it running for longer than necessary. The prints are cleared whether I wash them 20 min or 2 hours, but the water bill is a lot higher with 2 hours.

MB

 

[haris]

If you have too much pressure on water source it wouldn't oscilate. I must open my tap just slightly, it is almost closed and to let water to flow with really low pressure for washer to perform correctly. Only slightly stronger water pressure and it stuck.

I have read that someone put water inlet on place of water outlet of washer and let water flow out freely of washer without basket oscilating. So, instead water go from inlet hose with plastic operator on top of washer to bottom and then again to top through path at inside wall of washer and throught outlet hose out of washer, in his case water go to bottom of washer through outlet hose and water path at inside wall of washer, and freely out from top opening of washer (big opening through we put prints and basket in washer). I never tried that, so can't tell how efficient it is.

That is, instead water go top-bottom-top/out with basket oscilating as normal operation of washer is, in his case water go bottom-top/out without basket oscilating.

 

[PeterB]

My outlet and inlet are adjacent each other

I too have a Paterson auto print washer and it operates OK, but a few things concern me. Dead Link Removed.

Firstly, people in this APUG thread say the outlet is at the bottom on the opposite side to the inlet. This isn't the case with mine and I'm at a loss to see how my Paterson auto print washer encourages water to actually circulate past the prints, as my outlet is adjacent the inlet at the top end.

Secondly, Jean-David writes here:

"When I got my Zone VI print washer, Fred Picker enclosed a test report of print washers by a test lab he hired. I assume Zone VI paid for the testing, so the Zone VI came out first -- about the same as the East Street print washer that was no longer available. The oscillating Patterson tested the worst. They found the oscillating feature was of no use and you got comparable results with it or without it. They made it work about as well as all the others if they built a gizmo that showered the water in the top all over the reservoir. But by the time I read that, I had no interest in making something like that and besides it was not big enough for 11x14 inch prints. "​

Can anybody confirm such a claim by Fred Picker ???

rgds
Peter

 

[PeterB]

OK folks, can anyone who owns a Paterson auto print washer let me know where your inlet and outlet hoses are relative to each other ? I still can't understand how mine gives an effective wash.

Mine also has a black plastic well below the inlet hose running the height of the washer. It looks likes its supposed to release the water from holes along it, but there are no holes ! I emptied the water from it last night and had a strong fixer smell on my fingers from the bottom of the washer. This is a clear sign something itsn't working right. I must have a dodgy unit I think.
Peter

 

[bdial]

Peter, I have one like the one you've pictured, and stopped using it because it didn't seem to do an effective job. Before replacing it, I considered adding some drip irrigation tubing to try and get better water circulation near the prints.

 

[PeterB]

Thanks bdial. To me it seems a fundamental flaw in the design that the water does not flow over the prints. If I keep mine I'll modify it to cause the water to flow top to bottom or side to side.
rgds
PEter

 

[rmolson]

paterson washer

I have a Paterson too and mine never did oscillate But the water comes in at the top to run the oscillator and also at the sides and bottom, through the square plastic bar running down the inside of the tank. Reversing the hoses would cause the water to come in the overflow and provide no place for the water to exit except by overflowing the top of the tank. Not a very efficient way to wash.

 

[craigclu]

OK folks, can anyone who owns a Paterson auto print washer let me know where your inlet and outlet hoses are relative to each other ? I still can't understand how mine gives an effective wash.

Peter

Mine has an inlet at the top right of one of the long sides (this is the one with the oscillating valve). The outlet is at the bottom of the same side in the opposite (lower left) corner. It travels up the channel to an outlet toward the top, just above the bottom hole. There is a rubber stopper at the top of the channel at a second hole. I have a pdf of the original instruction/info sheet that came with it but I'm in the middle of a new computer episode and haven't restored those files yet. I've shared it with a number of people on here so perhaps one of them can post it?

After going back over this thread, I'm wondering if it wasn't in an old Picker newsletter that I recall the information about the testing that showed that a smooth, very slow flow of water drew the residuals efficiently out of the washer? I've got most of the newsletters and will post a copy if I can find it.

 

[craigclu]

I just opened an old binder of Picker stuff and found this. Not directly about the Paterson but the info is somewhat relevant. I'll keep looking for the other referenced info that includes the Paterson info.

 

[PeterB]

Thank you for that pdf Craig ! It gives a logical description of why the Zone IV washer was designed that way it was.
If you are able to find the other sheets you mention that would benefit my understanding.
I'll take a photo of my washer soon to show you what I mean. I am still trying to work out if yours looks like mine or not. If it does, I don't think mine is working properly as that channel doesn't appear to have any holes at its bottom or along its length to allow water to enter/exit it.
rgds
Peter

 

[Kirk Keyes]

It gives a logical description of why the Zone IV washer was designed that way it was.

Except it's logic is completely flawed in respect to the "hypo-laden water" part, and that part is the crux of the entire design... It's junk science.

 

[PeterB]

Except it's logic is completely flawed in respect to the "hypo-laden water" part, and that part is the crux of the entire design... It's junk science.

Thanks Kirk. In my haste to improve upon my Paterson's seemingly flawed design I was directed towards the Zone VI print washer (by a post on Pure Silver) as being superior to most other archival washers made.
It might be a decent washer (I'm not sure), but thanks to Kirk I now know that Fred's theory behind why it is good is indeed flawed. Here is another short article pointing this out too.

rgds
Peter

 

[PeterB]

So last night I discovered a TINY hole in my Paterson Auto Print Washer where water flows in at the base. It is such a token flow rate that I really doubt it has much effect, especially with the amount of turbulence created by the rocking print basket.


I note that the majority of the inlet flow goes through the rocking mechanism's jet at the surface. This main inlet flow is a function of the set water pressure, and for a high rocking frequency (about 1Hz), I measured that 1L of water went out the outlet hose in 1min and 3 seconds.

I proceeded to dye the water blue and was dissapointed to see that it took about 1 hour for the last traces of visible dye to leave the tank. The tank is about 15 litres. Once I find out the most effective way to wash FB prints in a vertical print washer I'm inclined to make the necessary mods to my washer. Hopefully it will result in the dye being cleared in much less time than 1hr3sec
rgds
Peter

 

[craigclu]

but thanks to Kirk I now know that Fred's theory behind why it is good is indeed flawed. Here is another short article pointing this out too.

Peter

That's an interesting read. I guess that my vague memories of things read "somewhere" in the past are now more clear and organized. I'm certain now that my memories were from those old Picker newsletters. He had some solid logic on many things photographic and access to authoritative information was so limited vs today's electronic world that one relied on the few trusted or comfortable sources at hand.

I recall going through some hypo checks those many years back and concluding that the oscillation action of the Paterson didn't seem to accomplish anything, though. For the past 25-30 years, I've been clamping a supply hose to the upper lip of the end opposite the bottom outlet and letting a very slow stream of water flow slowly through the system. Maybe I've been too complacent, based on those old trials, as I haven't been doing hypo checks for many years. This has inspired me to revisit this again!

 

[Kirk Keyes]

I bought it for like $75 years ago and even then, that was a hot deal on an 11x14 print washer that could hold 12 prints.

I have it sitting in a utility tub that has a sloping base in it so the auto-agitation just will not work pushing the basket uphill. So I just take my water supply and just drop a hose into the bottom of my Paterson Print washer and not use the auto-agitator.

 

[PeterB]

If you had to design an archival print washer from scratch, how would it wash the prints and why ? Rathe rthan recommending which brand you would use, I ask the q. this way to remove the bias for or against existing brands of washers.

Vertical (space saving) washers and ones requiring less interaction achieve extra points ! Water saving is not a high priority.