Part 2: CLA Extar 101mm f4.5 Synchro rapid 800 Shutter

BrianShaw · Aug 30, 2016

Oh, yes... bending this or that. I didn't mention that, did I? That's just as scary as filing or peening the speed cam!

I don't have too much experience with the Supermatic, nor do I seem to have the repair manual on the computer where I currently sit. But if you have it and a re using it... I'm totally impressed!

peter k. · Aug 30, 2016

BrianShaw said:
I'm totally impressed!

Don't be, just a loose nut, who has no realizing of what he's doing..
What was that old Kate Smith remembrance.. or as in the Yogi Berra colloquialism.. "It ain't over to the fat lady sings"

Ok re-reading thoroughly the lube instructions, from the manual, there are only three places to oil.
"1) On the end of the release lever where it engages the synchro sector." (If I understand correctly this location, its just a place where two edges meet, press rub. Why oil instead of grease. How will the oil stay there, even if just a film? I'll hold off on that one until I learn more.)
"2) On the inside and outside of the diameters of the blade controller." (That makes sense, used graphite before, should I clean off the graphite? Or it doesn't matter)
"3) On the latching surface of the release lever latch where it engages the release lever lock stud." (Refer to #1's question again)
For greasing, it seems to come down to, is any place that rubs, mechanically, grease very lightly.
"Use only a thin film and wipe off any excess." Sounds like if you can see any grease,then you have applied to much.

Hmmm The blades.. where they pivot on pin. Graphite or just a thin film of oil?

shutterfinger · Aug 30, 2016

peter k. said:
Hmmm The blades.. where they pivot on pin. Graphite or just a thin film of oil?

Never use oil on the shutter blades.

peter k. said:
"2) On the inside and outside of the diameters of the blade controller." (That makes sense, used graphite before, should I clean off the graphite? Or it doesn't matter)

Really! First time I've heard of using oil on a blade controller.

Extra Fine Powdered graphite works well to make blades move smoother. DuPont Dry Film Teflon works extremely well also.
Use either on shutter blades and controllers or on Aperture blades. Use sparingly as any excess will vibrate off as the shutter is used and coat the inside of the lens cells with black specs until the excess has been dislodged from the pivots and blades.

To bend a post for speed adjustment use a pair of miniature needle nose pliers and grip the full length of the pin. Move .001 inch and retest.
I have used the file/stake the speed ring to get speeds correct only if 75% or more of the speeds are off and all other adjustment means fail. Its a total PITA to do.

Springs are the only source of movement power in a shutter therefore they are the most important. As long as the movements of the mechanical parts is smooth and easy then moderate wear has little effect on overall operation. An Ultrasonic cleaner will do as good of a job cleaning shutters as a full disassembly if run for 10 to 15 minutes. 90% Isopropyl Alcohol works well in an ultrasonic cleaner but it gets warm to hot after 5 minutes and may cause paint to peel off some areas. I got one of the pint tank and 300 second timer ultrasonic cleaners off ebay for about $40, worth the investment.

peter k. · Aug 30, 2016

This is the blade controller.. there talking about, not the blades.
"2) On the inside and outside of the diameters of the blade controller."

shutterfinger · Aug 30, 2016

Yes that's a blade controller. All shutters have one. As one becomes more familiar with servicing shutters the more obvious typos, incorrect procurers, and similar errors. A tech sheet may have been issued to correct the error but replacement manuals were not printed. Once a company releases manuals to the public domain such tech sheets are frequently lost or left out.

I guarantee that if you tear the shutter down, lube the controller as stated and reassemble the shutter will not work as well as it does now.

BrianShaw · Aug 30, 2016

Plus materials change over time and the manuals don't reflect that. The afore mentioned dry Teflon Lube, for instance, is almost a miracle product. I use it a lot lately. Good stuff!

Denverdad · Aug 31, 2016

shutterfinger said:
Really! First time I've heard of using oil on a blade controller.

Maybe I can help here. I have a copy of the Synchro-Rapid 800 shutter manual too and while it does list these three lubrication locations, the line immediately preceeding it actually reads "Molykote lubricant should be applied:" Assuming the referenced product is a dry lubricant rather than an oil, then that would be consistent with your suggestions for Extra Fine Powdered graphite or DuPont Dry Film Teflon. So no "oil" is called out that I can see, at least not using that term explicitly.

Actually I've long had some confusion about exactly what the Molykote product referred to. In trying to figure this out I came to Dow-Corning's datasheets and website, which include some good tutorials on tribology. Yet there is a bewildering array of lubricants which all bear the "Molykote" name, and these include powders, pastes, greases and oils. so not much help there! I do have a scribbled note next to these lines suggesting that I thought the Molykote Z- Powder would be an equivalent today, but that was purely speculation on my part.

Just for reference, following my manual then lists 10 locations to which grease should be applied (specifically, Texaco Unitemp grease is called out). The shutter pivot pins are not among these.

Jeff

BrianShaw · Aug 31, 2016

I'm 99.99% sure that moly coat refers to the grease, not a dry lube. Great info, btw, Jeff.

Substitute of newer lubrication products, though, may actually be beneficial if chosen carefully.

peter k. · Aug 31, 2016

Denverdad said:
The shutter pivot pins are not among these.

Da.. newbie CLA guy here.. with manual, but lack of experience and understanding of terms... what are you referring to when you state 'shutter pivot pins'

Update: Redid it.. full tear down.. and tried to lube as described.. used graphite, very little sewing machine oil and white lithium grease. Just tested it.. oh my... unbelievable.. within tolerance except above 200. (400 = 250 800 = 400). Great, and so what.
Going to take some shots,, and then test it again. If it maintains.. its nothing but beginners luck. Well see, Oh my.. unbelievable .. trying not to get to excited!
"It ain't over until its over"

shutterfinger · Aug 31, 2016

Well, it will likely last 10,000+ exposures or 20 years whichever comes first.
Common results on your speed test. You did it correct. Pat yourself on the back.

Denverdad · Sep 1, 2016

Congrats on getting this going! I have a a Synchro Rapid 800-equipped Tourist waiting in the wings myself, which I am dying to get running - hence the reason for purchasing the manual and my interest in this thread.

Given the bad reputation these shutters have, I find your results most encouraging and can only hope I will fare as well when I start digging into an 800 for the first time. By the way, you ended up with a nice sequence there - where you can go from 1/200 to an actual 1/400 by just skipping directly to the "800" setting. I've had several old cameras that followed a similar pattern for the higher speeds, and found it a most usable setup.

peter k. said:
Da.. newbie CLA guy here.. with manual, but lack of experience and understanding of terms... what are you referring to when you state 'shutter pivot pins'

Sorry - my fault not yours! I was referring to the blade pivot points actually (addressing your earlier question: "Hmmm The blades.. where they pivot on pin. Graphite or just a thin film of oil?"), but my words weren't very specific. I'm not far from being a newbie myself when it comes to shutter work, and the jargon still trips me up sometimes.

By the way, I finally read the section in the manual about re-assembling the blades (see under figure 47), and it does state these are to be clean and dry (i.e., no lube of any kind is suggested). Having said that, according to most of what I've read, including the very helpful inputs here from Shutterfinger and Brian Shaw, the fine graphite or dry Teflon lubricants should work well for this as long as you apply it only very lightly.

Jeff

peter k. · Sep 1, 2016

Thanks all.. hoping for some sun today, very cloudy right now, so I can test it.

Denverdad or anyone else.. some NOTES on the manual.

Disassemble figure #9-10 Release lever assembly is illustrating Old Style release lever, 107936. To see this, refer to first section of the combined manual of Parts List NO. 6201, page 5, at the top.
My shutter had the newer lever assembly 107844, with the added part. This assembly cannot be taken out as instructed on figure #9-10, UNTIL you remove the Trigger assembly first, figure 17-18. As that added part, of the release lever, needs to clear the centered brass lens mounting, by being moved towards the outside of the shutter housing. To help facilitate this, one also has to remove the the screw from the sychro sector assembly, figure 19. So that the newer added part, does not catch the screw as you slide it towards the outside of the case. In reassemble one has to put this part back in, before Trigger assembly.

Also once you have steps, disassembly figure 1-7 done, go to figure 16 and lift out the high spring lever assembly, as its just floating in there on its stud, and if you flip over the lens as your working, the dang thing will try to fly off to never never land.

BrianShaw · Sep 1, 2016

BRAVO, peter!

Hatchetman · Sep 1, 2016

peter k. said:
Just tested it.. oh my... unbelievable.. within tolerance except above 200. (400 = 250 800 = 400).

Exactly the same as mine which was CLA'd by a shutter expert. Could be that's they way they always were.

shutterfinger · Sep 1, 2016

DuPont Teflon Dry Film Lubricant
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Dupont-Tefl...359233?hash=item1c6ccb7c41:g:1BoAAOSw9NdXsHFu
Use to come in a clear bottle. It has caused initial stick of aperture bladed when fully dried but once broken loose the aperture is very smooth. Leave aperture at the maximum setting until thoroughly dry. Apply with a cotton swab or similar.

Part 2: CLA Extar 101mm f4.5 Synchro rapid 800 Shutter

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