Panorama camera versus say a standard cropped out 35mm / 120 format camera.

rayonline_nz · Feb 23, 2014

Hi all just a newbie question here.

I thought of this b/c on the wall panorama can be quite unique than a standard aspect ratio print.

What is the difference in the framing? There are 35mm XPAN. I thought .. If a 6x7 camera with a wide lens can provide a 1:2 aspect ratio as 35mm film by visualling at least masking a bit of the frame. Does a panoramic camera still provide a wider view (left to right)?

Regular Rod · Feb 23, 2014

https://www.flickr.com/search/?w=23468852@N02&q=HolgAgon

That depends on the focal length of the lens. I use a HolgAgon for "panoramic" photographs but they are not wide angle because the lens is a 90 mm. The angle is "normal" even though the images include subject matter further out to the sides (or above and below if used vertically).

The camera simply allows you to make a different shaped "crop" of the world from those of the other formats.

RR

AgX · Feb 23, 2014

"Panaramic" involves two issues:

-) aspect ratio (let's say more than 2.5/1)

-) angle of view (let's say more than 100° in the longer direction)

But there are no fixed definitions.

NB23 · Feb 23, 2014

One is a real panoramic and the other is a fake.

Dan Fromm · Feb 23, 2014

rayonline_nz said:
What is the difference in the framing? There are 35mm XPAN. I thought .. If a 6x7 camera with a wide lens can provide a 1:2 aspect ratio as 35mm film by visualling at least masking a bit of the frame. Does a panoramic camera still provide a wider view (left to right)?

What do you mean by "panoramic camera?" Swing lens camera? Rotating camera (ancient, e.g., Cirkut; modern, e.g., Globuscope)? Roll film camera with a long gate and a rectilinear short focus lens (e.g., Linhof 6x24)?

The Xpan isn't really a 6x7 camera. It is a 35 mm camera with a long gate that uses a rectilinear short focus lens. You don' need no steekin' Xpan. You can get the same results and greater freedom in cropping with a humble Century Graphic.

fotch · Feb 23, 2014

I will level a tripod and make rotating photos that can be then put together to give a high quality panorama.

rayonline_nz · Feb 23, 2014

It is difficult doing city overseas travel with a large format .... It would also be preferrable to have something to visualise and not stitch frames up. As the Fuji or Linhof 612 or 617 might be too bulky for city overseas travelling, I thought about the Xpan with its wider lens and how does that compare to a 6x7 or 6x9 rangefinder and just visualing mask out of the frame so using a 6x7 or a 6x9 with its wider lens option (such as a Fuji 6x9 with that 40mm I think) or out of interest the Mamiya 7 with its wide lens but it's probably on the too expensive boat for me. It is not in actual terms but generally 24x36mm frame, so 1:2 ratio is like 72mm wide. So a 6x7 or 6x9 can that provide something similar? So you crop the top and/or bottom so you end up a 24mm height. So you are using a 6x7 or 6x9 as a 35mm panoramic camera at a 1:2 ratio. Would a real pano camera at the 1:2 ratio still provide a lens wider left to right than this make shift option? Just want to get an idea as I live in little New Zealand they don't even have these in store nor second hand so it's basically about getting it on their local auctions or overseas auctions. But at the moment I am just pondering this idea.

From what I seen the Fuji panoramic cameras cost at least $2,000US. I imagine the Xpan $1,000US.

rayonline_nz · Feb 23, 2014

fotch said:
I will level a tripod and make rotating photos that can be then put together to give a high quality panorama.

I've read books by Scott Kelby and he suggest one should take vertical shots to minimise the distortion. That could be quite a no. of frames on film right ... Or do you just take 2 shots horizontal?

Dan Fromm · Feb 23, 2014

Ray, I gave you a hint. Century Graphic. Relatively small, compact, not too heavy and accepts interchangeable lenses and 2 1/4 x 3 1/4 roll holders. No matter how you do it, rectilinear w/a lenses that cover 2x3 won't be cheap. The shortest lenses I use on my Century are 35/4.5 Apo Grandagon (expensive!), 38/4.5 Biogon (ditto), 45/9 CZJ Dagor (unfindable and not cheap), 47/5.6 Super Angulon (not cheap, and neither is the 47/8), and then a couple of 58 - 65 mm lenses. The Biogon almost covers 24 x 82, the very corners are black. The lenses I use on my Century are the reason I gibe "who needs an Xpan?"

Fotch's suggestion of using whatever lens suits you on a 35 mm camera, rotating the camera and stitching the shots is good. You can use a 35 mm camera or a small press camera. FWIW, I have and have even used a Nikon AP-2 panorama head, just shot horizontal. It is written somewhere that for best results the axis of rotation should pass through the lens' front node. The AP-2 and the equivalent Minolta panorama head (the two came from the same small machine shop) put the axis of rotation through the camera's tripod socket. I didn't find the misplaced pan axis a problem, but if the idea bothers you you can mount the camera on a focusing slide on a panorama head.

Denverdad · Feb 23, 2014

duplicate post

Denverdad · Feb 23, 2014

Ray, there are certainly a lot of different ways to go panoramic, aren't there! From things you have said I gather that the horizontal field of view is a key factor in your decision, perhaps even more so than the specific aspect ratio(?). Are you in the mode of trying to "go as wide as possible", or did you have a certain angular span in mind that you were wanting to capture? If you aren't sure, it might be worthwhile to take some time to think about the type of scenes you imagine photographing and see if you can imagine just how wide the horizontal field of view needs to be - literally, what horizontal angle of an actual scene you think you will typically want to span. If you don't have an existing camera system with which to compare, there are ways to measure angles in a scene using a protractor, by cutting out templates and holding them a certain distance from the eye, etc. In any event, if you can better define the horizontal coverage you think you need, then it is a simple matter to calculate what you will actually get using a specific camera/lens/film format combination. This exercise may also tell you whether a single focal length will work for you or if you need an interchangeable lens system to get different fields of view.

Regular Rod · Feb 23, 2014

rayonline_nz said:
It is difficult doing city overseas travel with a large format .... It would also be preferrable to have something to visualise and not stitch frames up. As the Fuji or Linhof 612 or 617 might be too bulky for city overseas travelling, I thought about the Xpan with its wider lens and how does that compare to a 6x7 or 6x9 rangefinder and just visualing mask out of the frame so using a 6x7 or a 6x9 with its wider lens option (such as a Fuji 6x9 with that 40mm I think) or out of interest the Mamiya 7 with its wide lens but it's probably on the too expensive boat for me. It is not in actual terms but generally 24x36mm frame, so 1:2 ratio is like 72mm wide. So a 6x7 or 6x9 can that provide something similar? So you crop the top and/or bottom so you end up a 24mm height. So you are using a 6x7 or 6x9 as a 35mm panoramic camera at a 1:2 ratio. Would a real pano camera at the 1:2 ratio still provide a lens wider left to right than this make shift option? Just want to get an idea as I live in little New Zealand they don't even have these in store nor second hand so it's basically about getting it on their local auctions or overseas auctions. But at the moment I am just pondering this idea.

From what I seen the Fuji panoramic cameras cost at least $2,000US. I imagine the Xpan $1,000US.

Can you use a few hand tools? Can you get on eBay?

If you can then you can build yourself a "HolgAgon".

Here's how I built mine...

http://freepdfhosting.com/b316cbe2ff.pdf

It is easy to do. Mine cost £167 for everything including the lens.

You can see some pictures made with a HolgAgon here: https://www.flickr.com/search/?w=23468852@N02&q=HolgAgon

richard

David Brown · Feb 23, 2014

rayonline_nz said:
What is the difference in the framing? There are 35mm XPAN. I thought .. If a 6x7 camera with a wide lens can provide a 1:2 aspect ratio as 35mm film by visualling at least masking a bit of the frame. Does a panoramic camera still provide a wider view (left to right)?

An Xpan with a 90mm lens, and a cropped 6x7 from say, an RB67 wiht a 90mm will look the same. of course. The Xpan also has a 45mm lens, much wider. However, I have a 50mm lens for the RB67, and so get very close by simply cropping and using a slice of the negative that's 1" x 2.25'.

On the other hand, I also use a swing-lens Horizon that takes a rotating panoramic picture covering (IIRC) 170 degrees. It is a totally different animal.

David A. Goldfarb · Feb 24, 2014

The main advantage of an Xpan over cropping from 6x7 is that an Xpan functions more like a 35mm rangefinder camera, if that's what you're accustomed to. At one time it was also desirable if you wanted to shoot Kodachrome, but that's not an issue anymore, alas.

An advantage of cropping from 6x7 is that you have more flexibility about the format shape and where to put the horizon in your panoramic images--like having a view camera with rise/fall (or shift when you shoot vertical cropped panos).

Best of both worlds: Mamiya 7II.

Like David Brown, I also have a swing-lens camera (Noblex 150), which is indeed a totally different animal, as he says, but for the right scene, it's perfect.

rayonline_nz · Feb 25, 2014

Thanks for that DIY approach, have saved it. Are the images sharp?

Well maybe a Fotoman if that is an option or simply use a 4x5 and crop it afterwards or use a 645 camera and stitch ...

Regular Rod · Feb 25, 2014

rayonline_nz said:
Thanks for that DIY approach, have saved it. Are the images sharp?

Well maybe a Fotoman if that is an option or simply use a 4x5 and crop it afterwards or use a 645 camera and stitch ...

My pleasure. The images are very sharp and so they should be with an Angulon.

Here's a couple of samples:

The HolgAgon is a very practical and usable camera. It is light weight too, ideal for back packing.

RR

jamie young · Feb 25, 2014

Dan's suggestion is a good one if you are looking to shoot "Pans" with a regular camera. You can use a regular camera and crop to the panoramic format. Your angle of view is limited to the coverage of the lens used. You can also use a "swing lens" camera which typically covers up to 140 degrees. These cameras have lens that swing on a pivot point to expose a stationary piece of film set in a curved film plane. The third type is a rotating panoramic camera that rotates on a pivot as the film moves past a slit in a continuous motion ( hopefully). These cameras can shoot over 360 degrees. The cirkut cameras were the first production cameras of this type. Globoscope, hulcher, and roundshot were some of the modern version of this type. I've shot a lot with cirkuts and roundshots and love them and images they shoot

PKM-25 · Feb 27, 2014

I use a few 6x12 backs for my 4x5 and my 3-lens Xpan kit for panoramic. The lenses for the Xpan are incredible, they will really push a film like Technical Pan to the utter brink. So one of my favorite travel kits is the Xpan with the 30, 45 and 90 and my Leica M3 with a 50mm 1.4. Not much you can't do with that setup really.

That being said, I love the aspect ratio of 6x12 and the ease of using rolls film with it and obviously, much larger negatives than those from the Xpan...

Dan Fromm · Feb 27, 2014

Y'know, the 35/4.5 Apo Grandagon just covers 6x12. Just. And the center filter really is needed. Not to denigrate the Xpan, but its sort of like the Alpa 12. Lovely, a joy to behold, according to users a pleasure to use but there are less expensive ways of doing what it does, and more. The 35 Apo Grandy isn't cheap -- I ended up paying a grand for mine and its center filter, bought 'em separately -- but there are quite inexpensive 6x12 roll holders and 4x5 cameras that will focus it.

MartinP · Jun 22, 2014

The way I eventually tried out the panoramic idea was with a (freshly serviced, "better than new") Pentacon-6 and the Arsat 30mm lens with 112 degree horizontal/vertical coverage, then cropping the neg to about 25x56. Admittedly the term 'panoramic' is not tightly defined, but this seems to fit the bill. One also gets a sort of pseudo rising-front if required, by moving the part used in the crop. Another strong positive point is that the negs print using common medium-format enlargers of course. There is some barrel distortion, as the Arsat is not a perfect rectilinear lens, so that must be considered when framing up your subject(s).

Dan Fromm · Jun 22, 2014

Interesting. Isn't the Arsat a fisheye?

MartinP · Jun 22, 2014

Well, I always thought a fisheye was 180 degrees in all directions and forming a round image ? The Arsat allegedly covers 180 degrees across the diagonal but it certainly fills the frame completely. The distortion curves lines, especially near the edges of the frame, which can be either annoying or interesting depending . . .

Another place where the lens excels (in terms of price/performance) is night-sky pictures. I made some very long time exposures (thirty minutes maximum) during the Perseids meteor shower with ground, sky and a "stationary" Pole Star. (Edit: but that was without intending to crop a panorama from the neg of course).

lxdude · Jun 22, 2014

One thing to consider is definition. The XPan's lenses are designed to be sharp right out to the far ends of the frame. Cropping MF might not be as satisfactory.

Sirius Glass · Jun 23, 2014

rayonline_nz said:
Hi all just a newbie question here.

I thought of this b/c on the wall panorama can be quite unique than a standard aspect ratio print.

What is the difference in the framing? There are 35mm XPAN. I thought .. If a 6x7 camera with a wide lens can provide a 1:2 aspect ratio as 35mm film by visualling at least masking a bit of the frame. Does a panoramic camera still provide a wider view (left to right)?

Cropping is not the same field of view. The ratio will be the same, but the coverage is different.

The Hasselblad SWC has a rectilinearly correct lens, that is the wide angle lens does not distort the objects on the borders of the prints. Take a look at these wide angle shot.

Does this help?

Dan Fromm · Jun 23, 2014

Sirius Glass said:
Cropping is not the same field of view. The ratio will be the same, but the coverage is different.

You've lost me completely. Please explain further.

To help focus your thoughts, look at this shot http://1drv.ms/1pvlksm taken with a 38/4.5 Biogon, a Century Graphic, and a 2x3 roll holder. Many are the cropping opportunities.

Panorama camera versus say a standard cropped out 35mm / 120 format camera.

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