Over active developer

Forte fd-103 see file , A developer i like to use, lately I started mixing it with warm water and papers were developed in under 15 seconds, gives some nice irregularities but not something sustainable. development at 20ºc
My question is can mixing with warm water -40º celcius- alter the developer properties compared to mixing at room temperatures?

And in the formula it says chrystal soda 59 gr or anhydrous soda 22 gr. I use washing soda and that's not anhydrous so 59 gr. that's also how I remember making it. but is it to much, could there be a over stimulating effect?

Thanks.

Here a paper negative

case-ie said:

My question is can mixing with warm water -40º celcius- alter the developer properties compared to mixing at room temperatures?

Click to expand...

You mean, you initially mix the developer at 40C to facilitate the dissolution of the ingredients, and then allow to cool down to working temperature? In that case - no, it won't affect the properties of the developer in any significant way.

case-ie said:

And in the formula it says chrystal soda 59 gr or anhydrous soda 22 gr. I use washing soda and that's not anhydrous so 59 gr. that's also how I remember making it. but is it to much, could there be a over stimulating effect?

Click to expand...

If your washing soda happens to be sodium carbonate monohydrate then you're using much of it, but it doesn't explain the uneven development you got. However, washing soda in my understanding is generally crystal soda, which is the decahydrate.

You mention this is a paper negative. What I see mostly is the effect of uneven wetting which can be the result of far too short a development time. Just dilute your developer lots (let's say 1+5 or 1+10 from what you have now) to slow it down. Development should ideally take at least a minute, but 2-3 minutes would be OK, too. This will reduce the effects of uneven wetting during the initial stage of development.
You could also consider adding a surfactant to the developer to break the surface tension; something like photoflo will work OK.

If I understand correctly, the OP wants a repetable or at least predictable uneven development for artistic purpose.

I don't think the developer is the only variable here with such short time. Processing temperature, development oxidation/exhaustion grade, or as simple as how the paper is placed on the tray could be as important as the developer formulation.

Honestly, I think you should embrace and enjoy the uncertainty of your process output (like with litho printing) and value the uniqueness characteristic of each print.

halfaman said:

If I understand correctly, the OP wants a repetable or at least predictable uneven development for artistic purpose.

Click to expand...

Oh, it's intentional. I see. Then frankly I don't know what the problem is.

@case-ie could you please clarify what you're trying to find out/ask?

halfaman said:

If I understand correctly, the OP wants a repetable or at least predictable uneven development for artistic purpose.

I don't think the developer is the only variable here with such short time. Processing temperature, development oxidation/exhaustion grade, or as simple as how the paper is placed on the tray could be as important as the developer formulation.

Honestly, I think you should embrace and enjoy the uncertainty of your process output (like with litho printing) and value the uniqueness characteristic of each print.

Click to expand...

koraks said:

Oh, it's intentional. I see. Then frankly I don't know what the problem is.

@case-ie could you please clarify what you're trying to find out/ask?

Click to expand...

Thanks for your answers, I see the question is not completely clear, but it is just the technical side, I'm not after unpredictical development.

And the initial development is even but very fast, the irregularities appear in the stopbath after pulling the paper quick from the developer.

OK, thanks. Dilute the developer so you have a longer development time. Now you probably get weird effects because some of the developer is still extremely active as it hits the stop bath but in other places it's already stopped. You're fighting an uphill battle with these short development times.

case-ie said:

And the initial development is even but very fast, the irregularities appear in the stopbath after pulling the paper quick from the developer.

Click to expand...

I wonder how this happens? I always thought that stop bath instantly stops development so as long as what you see at the end of the development is what you want then the stop should retain that development

pentaxuser

case-ie said:

And in the formula it says chrystal soda 59 gr or anhydrous soda 22 gr. I use washing soda and that's not anhydrous so 59 gr. that's also how I remember making it. but is it to much, could there be a over stimulating effect?

Thanks.

Click to expand...

There are two crystal forms of sodium carbonate. The decahydrate, which Google AI says is washing soda, and the monohydrate. In the US, the Arm and Hammer brand wqshing soda is generally mostly the monohydrate form. To convert from anhydrous to monohydrate, you multiply by 1..2. If that's what you have, it would explain overactive developer. Where do you live and what kind of "washing sode" are you using.

For monohydrate, you would use 26.4 gr. (22x1.2), whether that's grams or grains.

pentaxuser said:

I wonder how this happens?

Click to expand...

The stopbath is not everywhere at once and the development is very fast.
If you would slide it in with direct agitation you get very different and less pronounced patterns. This is what you get when you panic and you just slam it in.

Alan Townsend said:

There are two crystal forms of sodium carbonate. The decahydrate, which Google AI says is washing soda, and the monohydrate. In the US, the Arm and Hammer brand wqshing soda is generally mostly the monohydrate form. To convert from anhydrous to monohydrate, you multiply by 1..2. If that's what you have, it would explain overactive developer. Where do you live and what kind of "washing sode" are you using.

For monohydrate, you would use 26.4 gr. (22x1.2), whether that's grams or grains.

Click to expand...

Thank you, Yes, Koraks also mentioned this. I live in the Netherlands so that would be the decahydrate. The washing soda I buy is called silver soda here. I used it in this quantity before and it is quite a heap, but all was good, but I have had problems before. I will look into that.

case-ie said:

I live in the Netherlands so that would be the decahydrate.

Click to expand...

You can buy both decahydrate and anhydrous sodium carbonate in supermarkets. The "Driehoek Kristal Soda" is anyhdrous. It dissolves a little quicker than the decahydrate, and it also clumps less readily (provided you store it in a dry place!)


Of course, it doesn't matter which kind you use as long as you compensate for the difference in molar mass.

pentaxuser said:

I always thought that stop bath instantly stops development so as long as what you see at the end of the development is what you want then the stop should retain that development

Click to expand...

Under normal conditions yes, but those don't really apply in this case. OP is using a 15 second development time and the paper is not developed to completion (it's a paper negative, not a print). This means that small differences in the brief time the stop bath needs to penetrate the emulsion across the paper surface severely affect the image, since the developer can continue working in some places a second or so longer than in others. Which such a short development time (and hence, such a strong developer), this causes gross unevenness.

The solution as I've indicated before is to use a much, much slower developer and a longer development time.

Very nice, this gets interesting, I used this one



I have had problems before and contacted the manufacturer and asked if their soda was anhydrous, they were very amused and told me that was not the case.
Anyway I will order the Driehoek soda. Thank you very much!

I'm familiar with that one as well; I used it back in the day when it still came in a green bag. That's decahydrate. I found it a little less convenient to work with because it clumps so badly and it takes longer to dissolve as well. The 'Driehoek' stuff is quite nice. The main problem with anhydrous sodium carbonate is that it's hygroscopic and over time (if exposed to normal air) will convert to monohydrate. This means that in practice, you never know for sure what the ratio between monohydrate and anhydrous in the box is. However, since the conversion rate is 1.17 or so, it's not a major issue in most cases and especially not in your application.

koraks said:

Under normal conditions yes, but those don't really apply in this case. OP is using a 15 second development time and the paper is not developed to completion (it's a paper negative, not a print). This means that small differences in the brief time the stop bath needs to penetrate the emulsion across the paper surface severely affect the image, since the developer can continue working in some places a second or so longer than in others. Which such a short development time (and hence, such a strong developer), this causes gross unevenness.

The solution as I've indicated before is to use a much, much slower developer and a longer development time.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the explanation I use a Nova slot processor so the paper is plunged in vertically and from the bottom to the top being covered is virtually instant ( a fraction of a second)

So OP you might want to try buying a Nova Slot Processor to see if my "virtually instant" is instant enough or the risk free and cheaper version is koraks' one

Have you tried his solution yet ?

pentaxuser

Why not let the development of the paper negative go to completion? Trying to control contrast of paper negative by shortening the development time and development by inspection is both inconsistent and prone to errors.