Our Cameras and the Future.. Repair-wise

[Moopheus]

That's what I was going to suggest. Clock and watch makers/repairers make replacement parts all the time.

I think it's time we stopped thinking we need specialist camera repairers and started thinking about getting clock repairers to look at our cameras.
Steve.

And clock and watch guys aren't also specialists? The abovementioned spindle for my Illinois watch cost $150 over ten years ago. I'd guess that at that rate for parts, many old cameras end up unrepaired.

 

[Steve Smith]

And clock and watch guys aren't also specialists?

Yes, but there are probably more of them than there are camera repairers.


Steve.

 

[Ian Grant]

Yes, but there are probably more of them than there are camera repairers.

Steve.

Camera shutters are made by watch manufacturers

Going back to basics cameras were made by cabinet makers, and they still could be

Ian

 

[Steve Smith]

Going back to basics cameras were made by cabinet makers, and they still could be

They can also be built by people who wouldn't go so far as to call themselves cabinet makers too!


Steve.

 

[brian steinberger]

To the OP regarding Bronica repair.... try giving this place a call http://kohscamera.com/repair.htm . They specialize in Bronica repair and quite possibly may have the parts needed to fix yours.

Thanks so much! I just emailed them. Funny that they say the repair all Bronica gear, then go on to list all the Bronica gear ever made... except the RF645... So we'll see.

 

[Aristophanes]

Yes, but there are probably more of them than there are camera repairers.
Steve.

Digital clocks wiped out most watch repair places in the 1980's. Timex used to have service centres on contract everywhere, then it was mail in, then it was gone. A drugstore chain I worked at many years ago had a Timex-trained technician in most major stores. No longer. Even mid-price mechanical watches are more likely at warranty to be replaced than repaired.

Now it is the very high-end watches that are mechanical and have substantial repair facilities, Rolex etc. The cost to repair is extremely high. They do not do nickle and dime stuff. The employees have to undergo very specific and long-term training in one brand alone. The closest one could come to it is Leica's service. There are watchmaking and repair standards bodies:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WOSTEP

The thing is, apprentices are trained precisely because there are new watches constantly entering the market, usually at premium (multi-thousand $$$ prices). This assures long-term revenue flow and therefore certainty of investment.

The same cannot be said of cameras. High-end film cameras are still marginally in production, but at lofty prices along with lenses. They simply do not sell on the scale as mechanical watches because watches are seen to have an intrinsic "jewelry" value. They can be seen as ostentatious displays of wealth, prestige, bling, or whatever. Really, only Leica gets in that league. Watches are fashion as much as functional. Cameras don't really have the same investment status as a high=-end mechanical watch.

And watches are not dependent on an input like film. They are, in fact, designed as much as possible, to be completely independent of additional inputs.

There are similarities in cameras and watches as one can see from the presence of Seiko (shutter manufacture especially) in both camera and watch markets. It's no coincidence that cameras and watches have primarily been manufactured in Middle Europe and Japan from companies closely grouped together.

The idea of crossover repair service is quite common. However, the option to repair salvage cameras as a mainline business alongside new, high-end watch servicing does not marry easily. I suspect on the shop floor it is even more difficult to expect a TAG Heuer technician to switch from a $8,000 chronograph repair to a 40 year-old rangefinder cobbling parts from eBay no-sells.

The mechanical watch biz is not faring well. Younger demographics simply don't use or need watches as much due to smartphones and aesthetics. Many do not like the weight on their arms of a watch. That may change, but it is likely to have a secular impact.

 

[Steve Smith]

Most clock makers now are hobbyists similar to model engineers. I have been to model engineering exhibitions where there have been clock repairing demonstrations.

So whilst the number of traditional clock repairers might have dwindled down to almost nothing commercially, they still exist in the amateur field and there are many more of them than there are shutter repairers.

They probably have better equipment than most of us amateur camera tinkerers too.


Steve.

 

[CGW]

Clock repairers is quite a good idea. Many of the internals related to the motion of the shutter and other mechanics are extremely similar.

Have you ever actually tried to get anything fixed this way???

 

[E. von Hoegh]

Maintenance. Maintenance. Maintenance.
Clean and properly lubricated parts wear less. Finding a skilled repair person (as opposed to a semiskilled parts replacer) has been a problem as long as there have been cameras with mechanisms attached. Now it is more of a problem. Using clock and watch repairers carries with it the same problems. For instance, there are perhaps 10 or 12 men on the north american continent competent to repair a marine chronometer; there are two or three times that number who think they are competent to do such work.

A good watch or clockmaker will have all the work he wants, and he'll want to charge his normal rates to work on a camera, if he can be persuaded at all. You'll need a man who is familiar with shutters, too. While they are similar, they are not the same, and if you rebuild a shutter with fits appropriate to a watch, it won't work very well.

 

[Moopheus]

Yes, but there are probably more of them than there are camera repairers.


Steve.

I doubt it, especially for vintage, out-of-production models. As Aristophenes says, the high-end makers maintain their own shops, but if you've got an Illinois, Gruen, Hamilton, etc., etc., the number of people who know what do is small. I know of one or two around here, and that's it. And watches, indeed, are a fashion accessory in a way that cameras just are not. Cameras need supplies to be useful, and if the users are a small number relying on salvage to keep their gear going, the supplies won't be produced.

 

[Ian Grant]

I doubt it, especially for vintage, out-of-production models. As Aristophenes says, the high-end makers maintain their own shops, but if you've got an Illinois, Gruen, Hamilton, etc., etc., the number of people who know what do is small. I know of one or two around here, and that's it. And watches, indeed, are a fashion accessory in a way that cameras just are not. Cameras need supplies to be useful, and if the users are a small number relying on salvage to keep their gear going, the supplies won't be produced.

Unlike camera repairers there are degree courses in Horology and they still turn out outstanding students wh usually get well paid jobs. It might surprise you but there is a demand for them.

Ian

 

[Aristophanes]

Unlike camera repairers there are degree courses in Horology and they still turn out outstanding students wh usually get well paid jobs. It might surprise you but there is a demand for them.

Ian

It takes considerable skill, much of it genetic in the hand/eye department, and very precise technical knowledge to be a brand service technician. The testing is rigorous. The repair supply chain is deliberately limited to compel margins higher. The luxury brands make their $ by keeping all aspects of service in their sphere with costly value added. Their customers can afford it. If they cannot, there is no net loss tot he manufacturer.

If we are looking at a market of middle class consumers trying to get old camera gear fixed with now new stock on the horizon, then there is little incentive for watch repair facilities to invest. The only incentive may lay on the Leica side due to the relatively deep pockets of its consumer base.

Analog repair could very likely be tied to extremely high end products and services. This is how it has gone with watches. This does, however, clash with the need to sell film by the linear billions of feet to stay profitable.

 

[Jeff Kubach]

I'll be dead long before any of my cameras need fixing!

Jeff

 

[jnoir]

FWIW, I am still on my 20s and been doing repairs for quite a few years now. But, I agree, there are dark times ahead when we think about skilled technicians.

I felt the same fear, so I learned. All it takes is enough motivation. Repairmen are usually open and friendly, and they are willing to answer your questions. Creating specific trainings would be highly valuable, and maybe another small source of income for the skilled people out there.

 

[fotch]

Yes, but there are probably more of them than there are camera repairers.


Steve.

Most are butchers and cannot properely repair a clock or a watch. Of the competent repair persons, most have a backlog of work. The cost of working on a low end antique clock is the same as a more valuable clock. Those with less valuable clocks will seek out cheaper repair persons who are usually not qualified at any level.

 

[Aristophanes]

Most are butchers and cannot properely repair a clock or a watch. Of the competent repair persons, most have a backlog of work. The cost of working on a low end antique clock is the same as a more valuable clock. Those with less valuable clocks will seek out cheaper repair persons who are usually not qualified at any level.

Supply and demand.

The price is set by the lowest price vis-a-vis the standard of quality the consumer expects. If the consumer is ignorant as to what quality is, then they overpay for lesser work. The price starting point is based on supply.

And these repair places stay in biz on the dynamic, a variant of the Peter Principle:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Principle

 

[fotch]

..........

The mechanical watch biz is not faring well. Younger demographics simply don't use or need watches as much due to smartphones and aesthetics. Many do not like the weight on their arms of a watch. That may change, but it is likely to have a secular impact.

Public transportation did not wipe out the luxury auto business and smartphones won't wipe out Rolex, etc. There is a large shortage of qualified watch repair persons in the US and the starting salary is an eye opener.

However, outside of high end watches, the average shop is feeling the effects of the current economy. I doubt many if any, would be interested in camera repair. If there was enough of a demand to repair cameras, the existing entities would fill the gap, higher, train, more repair persons. JMHO

 

[David Lyga]

I noted in a post a few days ago that at the Fort Washington (near Philadelphia) camera show I bought TEN NIkkormats for a total of $180. A person on the forum asked why I would buy so many. NOW you have the answer. For $18 each for functioning bodies I have no fears of cameras being not able to be repaired. In fact, most will not believe me when I state that I own hundreds and hundreds of SLR bodies of all makes and many more lenses than that. You could define my thinking as the potential author of this thread. I will not be deprived of film cameras. (Do not even attempt to ask me how much film and chemicals I have hidden away.)

ARISTOPHANES: Public transport did not eradicate the automobile but in the immediate post WWII decades the automoble almost wiped out public transport!!!!

Slowly, slowly, the public and the respective governments began to realize that public transport was essential for viable urban areas. - David Lyga

 

[fotch]

So, David, how much film and chemicals do you have hidden away?

 

[brian steinberger]

To the OP regarding Bronica repair.... try giving this place a call http://kohscamera.com/repair.htm . They specialize in Bronica repair and quite possibly may have the parts needed to fix yours.

Well to update, this place does not service the RF645. I emailed Tamron USA. Seems they are still able to service it. I will ship it to them and in the meantime look for another body.

 

[Sethasaurus]

How far are we from being able to make a 3D scan of part that we can produce with CNC machining equipment economically? A brand new Contax IIIA made to order? Why not? Now *that* would be a digital camera.

If you want, you can do a 3D scan of a gear/lever/whichever part and/or create a 3D printable object. There are a lot of people around now with this skill and capability, especially as 3D printing has gotten much less expensive. You can even upload your 3D file to a website and choose the material and color and they will send you the part.
I think I remember seeing an online laser-cutting service a while back, offering the choice of many materials.

Just as with anyone that drives a classic/vintage car, if you're worth your salt, you 'll keep it going yourself. If you don't have the skill or time, then you can pay someone to do it, and there will always be clever people out there that can work miracles (or what some consider as miracles).

I have repaired/restored many cameras that you cannot get parts for. All you have to do is remember that once upon a time (100+ years ago in some cases!) It was made, so it can be re-made.

Another good thing about new technology is you're connected to a huge network of clever people (such as many of those on APUG

 

[pbromaghin]

xx

 

[Steve Smith]

All you have to do is remember that once upon a time (100+ years ago in some cases!) It was made, so it can be re-made.

Exactly. I remember reading in a classic car magazine about a restoration company who refused to say they couldn't do something. Their attitude was that if someone did it in the past, it could be done again today.

The same is true of cameras. Repairers are not wizards with wands and spells, they are normal people with the right tools and knowledge.


Steve.

 

[PKM-25]

I am not sure if you do this already or not, but you stand to make a good cash flow if you just flat out restore some of the better cameras and lenses and then sell them. Very few are being made new so I suspect the demand for good solid mechanical rigs will make it worthwhile.

In terms of what the OP is going through, this is one of the main reasons I use popular equipment like Hasselblad. The exception would be my Xpan which is electronic, I do have concern for that one and keep an eye out for spare beater bodies...

FWIW, I am still on my 20s and been doing repairs for quite a few years now. But, I agree, there are dark times ahead when we think about skilled technicians.

I felt the same fear, so I learned. All it takes is enough motivation. Repairmen are usually open and friendly, and they are willing to answer your questions. Creating specific trainings would be highly valuable, and maybe another small source of income for the skilled people out there.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Embrace pinhole photography.

Some people get stuck on that.