Ortho-lith film for masking - some cool discoveries

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M Carter

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For starters, my ortho-lith use has been trying to dial it in without mixing some special low-con developer. I use HC110, 1:100.

So, in that scenario, the pros for me have been:

Develop by inspection, bright safelights don't fog the film, development is a couple minutes. The stuff is dirt-cheap. It does a fabulous job of making unsharp masks and other low-density masks, holds details very well.

Very easy to bleach with wet (ferri) or dry (iodine), so cleaning up details or bringing density down and so on is easy.

But the cons.

You can't get much density at all. Reach a certain point and everything just blobs up and turns to an abstract cloudy storm scene. So for something like an SCIM mask, or a mask to repair or isolate something - nope.

Selenium intensification or bleach and redevelop - no luck for me in those departments, so getting more density chemically is out.

Looking at the blobby/cloudy response to more exposure made me think "what if I use the developer the film is designed for?" Using lith dev 1+1+3 will give you litho negs, 100% contrast, that's what the stuff is designed for - masking in graphic arts applications.

But what about dilute lith dev, as we use for lith printing, say?

I've found using Arista lith dev at 15+15+240 is… well, freaking fantastic. You get blacks as deep as you need. You get decent tonal gradation (depends on your contact source - I made a sharp but thin positive with HC110, and set out to make a shadow mask).

And: I haven't tested this extensively, but it's potentially huge - litho film in weak developer seems to act like lith printing with paper. You can control contrast by a combination of exposure and developing time and develop by inspection - dev. time at the dilution mentioned has been about 4-6 minutes for me, with an initial couple minutes of no visible activity, so you can nudge the tray and do other things vs. staring for that long. However, development isn't "infectious", it's linear. Development does accelerate, which leads me to…

You can slow down development with a tray of water, 2-bath style… developer left in the emulsion seems to bring up the less dense areas. This potentially opens up 2-bath with even weaker dev. or warm water or other strategies. You can "dodge and burn" by dipping in water, and then dipping partial sections back in the dev, watching the development work.

If you contact your film where a small portion of the lith film is uncovered by glass or film, you get a visual max - black reference, which is priceless under safe lights, and also gives you an idea of when to start watching closely.

Anyone doing darkroom masking - I hope this opens up some avenues and I'd love to hear more results and testing.

A couple tips:

I'm using an office paper punch and silkscreen pins for registration. The film just won't punch that well… unless you stick some regular old office paper under it in the punch. I cut a stack and leave them by the punch, just like a strip that can reach the back of the punch and stick out an inch or so.

Hardening fixer's a good idea, since the emulsion is delicate, and post-processes don't seem that viable.

You can fix by inspection as well, since you can watch the base clear in the tray. I just double that time roughly.

Photoflo and tiny little "A" clamps… give the film a good flick of the wrist after final rinse, clip a corner, and set it on its side on a paper towel to dry (so the clip holds it upright).
 

DREW WILEY

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Sounds interesting, although I never use this type of film except for high contrast highlight masks. It punches perfectly with a pro micro-pin system (I use Condit gear). I have nothing against your approach; but since I more often mask color than b&w, I need a pan film.
 
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M Carter

M Carter

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Gotcha - I'd love a Condit setup but looked like about $450 for what I'd want; I managed to get my 45MX registered, holder and neg carrier. I already had a bunch of carriers so my outlay was maybe 75 cents and some time.

After a couple years of reading up on masking and ortho-litho film, I'd never read of anyone actually using lith developer (I've used it for paper plane masks to isolate buildings, so no middle tones needed). I just can't get any density with other developers, and it never occurred to me that lith dev. might deliver both density and usable contrast - apparently it hasn't occurred to anyone else, at least in the research I've done. For B&W - personally, it's pretty exciting to me, just opens up some really useful possibilities.

I'd love to do color, but only if Cibachrome was still around... man, that's a big big RIP.
 

bvy

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I used a soft working developer with ortho litho film to make some 8x10 portraits a while back, which I contact printed. There was good contrast but it was manageable, and the negative had a rich range of tones. I really want to make more of these, but you need a good blast of light since the film is rather slow, and I had to do some cumbersome things with my strobes to get me there.
 
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M Carter

M Carter

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Stick with highly dilute HC110.

Works fine for me for low density masks. As I mentioned in the OP, I can't get much density that way. Heck, I just posted a zillion paragraphs on why and when I like lith developer for some masks, and how excited I am and how good it's working - but I'll, umm, carefully consider your advice to stop using lith developer anyway... :tongue:
 
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M Carter

M Carter

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can you make enlarged negatives for alternate process?

You can get the film in very large sizes and rolls, and it's cheap. I've used it for paper plane masking, projecting a neg on a 16x20 sheet. But I needed high contrast for that setup. It's possible you could get a neg of proper density and contrast with some experimentation and research I suppose. You'd need to take your original negative and make a positive, and then use the pos to make the enlarged neg (or make an enlarged pos and then contact print that for a neg).

I needed a large negative of clouds for that paper-plane project to contact print (the goal was sky replacement) so I printed a 16x20 RC print of clouds, and contact printed that to the lith film. It worked well for me, but for the sky I didn't need perfect contrast as there were no deep blacks.
 
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DREW WILEY

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There is plenty of enlarged neg info on dedicated Alt sites, though most folks have gone hybrid due to the high cost of big film. For up to 8x10 FP4 is practical by the double-neg method. I've never liked the risk of blotchiness of lith-films for this purpose.
 
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M Carter

M Carter

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I'm finding lith film is rarely that hot "on its own"; for instance, my understanding of SCIM masks is you replace the main neg with the SCIM when you burn in those shadows. When I make them with lith film, they're more of a "burn mask" and go on top of the primary neg (which works just fine for me). Lately I've made multiple burn masks for multiple specific burns - with an unsharp mask it can give you almost a 3D look. I too get problems with blotchiness as density builds (though as posted above, I'm finding lith developer may give me much more useful results when I need density).
 

MrBrowning

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can you make enlarged negatives for alternate process?

Yes you can. While not Arista Ortho film I've made a positive using lith developer and the Multi Ortho film B&H used to sell. I then contact printed the positive on the dame film and developed in PMK because I was out of lith dev.

Attached is the lith positive and he resulting cyanotype. Please ignore the partial finger print.

Anyways back to the thread topic what is the best source for learning about masks? It's something I'd like to eventually add to my skill set.

Edit: I can't seem to upload the photos from my phone so here are the flickr links.
https://flic.kr/p/sHEPg3
https://flic.kr/p/saQUYm
 

DREW WILEY

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Lots of the time you can skip the whole chemical step with high-contrast pre-masks on ortho-litho film just by using a Sharpie pen on frosted Mylar.
 
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M Carter

M Carter

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Lots of the time you can skip the whole chemical step with high-contrast pre-masks on ortho-litho film just by using a Sharpie pen on frosted Mylar.

For a dodge masks this is the way to go, as far as I know (unless you need something really tight). I works great, but I've found sometimes you need an extra sheet of mylar in there to soften the pencil work... and then, man, exposure times can get kind of silly for big prints. For unsharp of course you need to contact, and for shadow masks doing the pencil-or-sharpie thing may not be the best path.

I've been trying to find something to use as opaquing dye and recalled a product I used in my garage a while back, Rockler's wood dyes. Super-concentrated dyes that are alcohol based. I have some in deep brown but I think I'll look into their deep reds.
 

DREW WILEY

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If you can find a little jar of dry Kodak neocreosin red (sp??) It will last a lifetime. Super easy to use. Go to a used book store and buy some old Kodak Graphic Arts or darkroom books. The old timers made their living with this stuff, and often more efficiently than Fauxtoshoppers. Smudge pencil too. I've seen prints of famous 30's and 40's movie stars where it was all cleaned up in the darkroom, rather than makeup. Print the straight negative and it would be all freckles n zits. Masking is fun anyway.
 

silveror0

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If you can find a little jar of dry Kodak neocreosin red (sp??) It will last a lifetime. Super easy to use. Go to a used book store and buy some old Kodak Graphic Arts or darkroom books. The old timers made their living with this stuff, and often more efficiently than Fauxtoshoppers. Smudge pencil too. I've seen prints of famous 30's and 40's movie stars where it was all cleaned up in the darkroom, rather than makeup. Print the straight negative and it would be all freckles n zits. Masking is fun anyway.
Drew - I believe the product you mentioned was called New Coccine, identified by Kodak as Crocein Scarlet (yes it was red). I recently saw some on *Bay but someone beat me to it. Never saw it anymore, though, so I decided to try a similar product available from Photographers Formulary called Crocein Scarlet (Biebrich Scarlet); I just bought some but have not used it yet. I have a negative from early years that's really crying for help with all the dust flaws from my changing bag (before I learned my lessons), and retouching the prints was a disaster. I noted this excerpt from my Lootens book, "New Croccine should be in the kit of every photographer and I believe it would be if detailed instructions were more readily available." Detailed illustrated instructions are provided in Lootens, a good book on many things photographic. I had queried Formulary twice asking if instructions were available and never got a response, so I gambled and just bought some (low risk, I think).
 
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DREW WILEY

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The actual dye involved is readily available from dye mfg, but a min order amt would probably last you 600 yrs, so it's nice to see a secondary supplier. You just get some little glass jars and mix different concentrations in distilled water.The secret is to build it up in layers gradually. Either apply it to the back of the film or to separate registered sheet of frosted Mylar. If you overdo it, it can be rinsed off. Again, there are old darkroom how-to books illustrating its use, which is actually quite easy. Have a selection of watercolor brushes on hand.
 
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M Carter

M Carter

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I didn't know the Formulary carried that. My first "real" job was in a graphic arts services shop, and I did lots of spotting negs with that matte-red stuff, worked with rubylith and amberlith, made litho masks and so on. So it's certainly up my alley, I'll hunt some down.
 

Craig75

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Thanks for all this Mr Carter. I found your imugur (spelling) show with the sign and sky very helpful.

I ve never used lith film before but i wanted to over expose and over develop a 16mm negative (from laclan's tip) maybe in strong perceptol. Print the shadows at a hard grade leaving highlights untouched. Then create a mask for those shadows and print highlights at same hard grade. I was hoping this would give unusual tonal rendition and a nice grainy pattern. I have some moersch easy lith however im not sure how to get shadows blocked up on mask to match those on print - not the registration but so that say 3 stops of shadows on print is matched by same 3 stops of shadows on mask leaving rest of mask clear. Is this simply a case of trial and error in the lith developer?

(Long badly worded question...)
 
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