Oriental Seagull FB VC

[cbphoto]

I've read some mixed things about what this actually is, in its latest incarnation. I've used a few sheets so far, after having been out of the wet darkroom for 5 years or so, and I'm looking to compare it to some other papers. I do like what I got, but need something to contrast it with, so to speak. What is everyone using for VC FB papers that give ridiculous blacks and a neutral to cold tone? I'm using LPD developer and FP-4 fixer. How does this paper compare to Ilford MG? I've read the threads on Kentmere and Varycon, and got a lot of conflicting opinions, but how would you compare those to the new Seagull?

 

[Chuck_P]

I can only speak to comparing it to Ilford MG IV-----in my view MG is a better looking paper. To me, MG has richer blacks (in Dektol) and just generally an all around glossier and smoother surface.

 

[memorris]

I can only speak to comparing it to Ilford MG IV-----in my view MG is a better looking paper. To me, MG has richer blacks (in Dektol) and just generally an all around glossier and smoother surface.

I agree about the Ilford paper being a better looking paper than the Oriental. I use LPD and Platinum II developers and far prefer the Ilford paper. It has very rich blacks and bright whites. It does tend to be a little flat sometimes. It will not tone easily if you are looking for color shifts.

For most of my printing I use Ilford MGIV Warmtone. The blacks are not as dark but you get a beautiful rich image that has nice depth. By using the Platinum II developer the blacks are cooler. Read the washing instructions because excessive washing makes it much warmer and can wash out the optical brighteners. This paper tone quite well. The biggest problem is, the price.

 

[cbphoto]

Thanks to both of you. I could budget for the Ilford if it's noticeably better (still cheaper than those stupid premium ink-squirt papers). Should I bother trying the Varycon or Kentmere VC papers?

What about the Emaks and Kentmere graded papers? Because they have 2,3, and 4 grades, I wouldn't mind using them despite the greater initial cost, if the tonality will be better. The flexibility is still there, plus I have both condenser and color dichro enlargers for additional contrast options on graded papers.

It's exciting getting back into this, but I have to narrow down my options!

 

[Chuck_P]

I guess you must first decide on what type of printing you'll be doing the most, either with VC printing or with graded papers. I don't use graded papers but if I were going to use VC papers, I would simply choose the one I could afford the most and just get back into it, knowing you an change later when you really get back into the swing of it all.

 

[chris6869]

I've tried Emaks, Varykon, Ilford MGIV and Ilford warmtone.
Emaks is really a great paper. Deep blacks, reacts strongly with selenium. The only drawback is that this paper is graded.
Varycon : better mid and highlights than MG IV but the darks are not as deep as Ilford.
Warmtone : deepest blacks with selenium.

As a conclusion, I use all of them but each one for different negatives. If I had to get only one, I would go MG IV.

I plan to try Kentmere, as I've read good reviews of this paper.

Christian

 

[msage]

I've tried Emaks, Varykon, Ilford MGIV and Ilford warmtone.
Emaks is really a great paper. Deep blacks, reacts strongly with selenium. The only drawback is that this paper is graded.

Christian

For some folks that is a plus!
Michael

 

[hacked - sepiareverb]

I use Ilford MG and the Seagull VC most often. I prefer the Seagull for final prints, as I find the shadow detail is better and I much prefer how it tones.

Warm tone prints get either Seagull VC Warmtone or the FOMA 532, sometimes Ilford MG Warmtone. I do miss Insignia (the old Agfa warmtone paper) and Forte Polywarmtone.

 

[stm]

I used to turn my nose up at multi-grade papers, opting for single grade fiber based paper. Mostly because I started using MG paper with Kodak Poly Contrast and was very disappointed with the lack fo deep blacks. I tried Ilford MG IV but I have to admit, Oriental has clearly knocked one out of the park with their MG cool tone. I use it exclusively now; changing grades using filtration on my color head. Oriental, where were you 25 years ago?!!!

 

[naugastyle]

I've only gotten a couple prints I liked from the Seagull, but I already own it so I'll have to do more tests. I like that it comes in 5x7...I have to cut down most of my other FB papers. I got some old MGIV from Craigslist, haven't gotten around to comparing it yet (I have waaay too many papers!).

Emaks is BEAUTIFUL, Slavich Unibrom is OK thus far (need more tests), would like to try Slavich Bromportrait as it's cheap for warm tone, but graded isn't always easy to deal with. You can of course still dodge/burn and there are ways to reduce/increase overall contrast, but if different areas of the print require different levels of contrast, it's tough. I chose a negative with somewhat challenging lighting for my first prints on Unibrom and they were really dull (it performed better with other negatives). Using the same negative with MG paper (Adox MCC) I got something much, much nicer. But of course MCC is about the same price as Ilford anyway. I would definitely give Emaks a try in both grade 2 and 3. Thus far I've only tried 3 and usually require a lot of fiddling to bring the contrast down...still, I love the look.

Actually, in the 25-sheet packs the price difference between Seagull and MGIV is pretty negligible so perhaps you could buy a small pack of each first. Not all papers become a significantly better value when buying in bulk, 25-sheet packs are fine for testing.

 

[dburian]

What is everyone using for VC FB papers that give ridiculous blacks and a neutral to cold tone? I'm using LPD developer...

Kentmere VC with LPD diluted 2 parts developer to 1 part water has been good to me for really deep, cold blacks and excellent neutral tones.
DB

 

[cbphoto]

Nancy, do you have a local source for Emaks? I want to get some to try out, but would like to do it fast (I'm printing some important negs this week). Neither the big two nor K&M have it.

Also, do you find that the grade 3 Emaks is close to a grade 3 filter with the Oriental using the same neg and enlarger? I tend to leave a 3.5 filter in my Valoy for just about every neg, so if I can match that contrast in a graded paper, I'd be set.

 

[wiggywag]

I have tried many papers, but my preferred one is Foma Fomabrom Variant III developed in Dektol. It is cheap and you can even get it under Freestyle's own brand: Ariste Edu Ultra. It is very responsive to toners and also with potassium ferrocyinade reducing (local contrast control).

The paper is similar to the good old Agfa Classic....give it a try. I liked the look a lot better than Ilford Multigrade.

 

[naugastyle]

cbphoto, for me the grade 3 Emaks is a bit contrasty. It's not that I don't bump up to a 3 filter on some negs with VC papers, but I've never been able to print on the Emaks #3 without Selectol-soft & pre-flash. I think it might be closer to a 3.5 as is. I haven't done direct comparisons with the Seagull, though.

As far as I know there are no local sources. Unfortunate because I too would prefer to buy it in New York.

 

[marduk]

As far as I know there are no local sources. Unfortunate because I too would prefer to buy it in New York.

And I was looking for sources of Emaks paper in Europe and didn't find any - except for an Austrain shop fotofachversand.at that doesn't ship to my country (Ukraine). That's especially a pity because I liked the range and prices. I also wrote to fotokemika but got no response. So I think I'll order some Emaks paper from freestyle next time. Meanwhile I'm going to get my box of Oriental Seagull FB VC soon and see how it prints.

Nancy, did you find the tone with Oriental paper is pronounced cool? What developer did you use?

P.S. Nancy, I read a series of posts about travel to Syria on your web page since I think of doing there next year and it's quite an interesting story. Thanks for sharing.

 

[cbphoto]

What is everyone using for VC FB papers that give ridiculous blacks and a neutral to cold tone? I'm using LPD developer...

Kentmere VC with LPD diluted 2 parts developer to 1 part water has been good to me for really deep, cold blacks and excellent neutral tones.
DB

I bought a box yesterday, and my first prints (in LPD) are really neutral and dry pretty flat. It seems to have more snap than the Seagull. I like.

 

[Scott Edwards]

I've used both the VC Oriental and the Graded version. The graded stuff is fantastic and deep, and the VC Oriental doesn't even seem related. Doesn't tone, flat blacks, etc. You can get crazy deep blacks with Ilford MG Warmtone in 1:1 Dektol followed by selenium toning.

 

[naugastyle]

I'm definitely no expert, having only printed a couple shots on the Seagull VC. I thought the blacks seemed pretty neutral until toning in selenium--definitely shifted bluish. I'm surprised you say you get deep blacks with MGWT, Scott. I haven't tried the FB yet, but the RC (in 1+2 Dektol) gets more of a slight bronze tone in selenium, and not too much darker.

marduk, thanks for reading. I have not made it back to Syria yet but it's still my favorite country...hope you do go, and love it as much as I do!

 

[cbphoto]

I get very deep blacks with the Oriental VC in LPD. I develop for about 3 minutes. I toned a couple in selenium with no real response at 1:20. Increasing the concentration gave me a slight purple after a few minutes. Not very scientific. I'm excited to see how the Kentmere tones, but that will be a while.

 

[cbphoto]

cbphoto, for me the grade 3 Emaks is a bit contrasty. It's not that I don't bump up to a 3 filter on some negs with VC papers, but I've never been able to print on the Emaks #3 without Selectol-soft & pre-flash. I think it might be closer to a 3.5 as is. I haven't done direct comparisons with the Seagull, though.

As far as I know there are no local sources. Unfortunate because I too would prefer to buy it in New York.

Thanks. I'm going to order some and try it out.

 

[Scott Edwards]

I'm surprised you say you get deep blacks with MGWT, Scott. I haven't tried the FB yet, but the RC (in 1+2 Dektol) gets more of a slight bronze tone in selenium

I've used both. The RC doesn't get the depth that the FB does.

Fixed in Hypam, followed by initial wash of 10 minutes. Toned in selenium diluted with water 1:8 for 2-3 minutes at 70deg F, constant agitation.

 

[2F/2F]

I was a fan of the Oriental VC....at least whatever it was about three years ago when I bought my last box. I used it when I wanted its particular look. Piercing, "empty" (almost "cold", but not really) highlights, super shiny, deep blacks. I loved it for low key and/or high contrast pix for the most part. I did not generally like it for pictures of people or landscapes, but loved it for cityscapes, low light pix, and architecture. I haven't printed on it much lately, though I still have a frozen half box of 11x14. Has it changed recently?

At any rate, I highly preferred it to Ilford MGIV FB, so reading other replies in the thread, it really is just a matter of personal preference, as it usually is in photography. I don't really like MGIV FB, except for the glossy warmtone variety, which is probably my favorite all-around printing paper. There is something about the tone (meaning the hue) of it that looks kind of sickly to me, and something about the mid tones that just seems wrong to me for what I want. (I LOVE MGIV RC, however.) To me, the glossy version of MGIV FB Warmtone is so subtly warm toned that it passes as a "standard" printing paper for me. I use it because I love its subtle warmth, and its midtones seem so much less "wonky" than the plain MGIV FB to me...and the highlights easier to burn smoothly for some reason. That fact that it is so expensive forces me to reserve it for special occasions, however. It is RIDICULOUSLY priced...any why? I don't know.

 

[edtbjon]

And I was looking for sources of Emaks paper in Europe and didn't find any - except for an Austrain shop fotofachversand.at that doesn't ship to my country (Ukraine). That's especially a pity because I liked the range and prices. I also wrote to fotokemika but got no response. So I think I'll order some Emaks paper from freestyle next time. Meanwhile I'm going to get my box of Oriental Seagull FB VC soon and see how it prints.
...

I know that Adox, that is Fotoimpex, rebrands several Efke products. While I havn't bought and used their "ADOX Fine Print Nuance Warmton FB" and they don't tell about who really makes the paper in the short description, I'm pretty sure it's rebranded Emaks K888. Everything in the description matches my experiences with Emaks.
Another german dealer which I've found on the 'net, but havn't bought anything from them is http://www.wephota.de/. (Look for the pdf pricelist and work it from there.) They don't tell who makes their "Universal" paper either, but it's for sure a good candidate for being rebranded Emaks. (But it could also possibly be Foma.) Anyhow, check it out.

//Björn

 

[marduk]

I know that Adox, that is Fotoimpex, rebrands several Efke products. While I havn't bought and used their "ADOX Fine Print Nuance Warmton FB" and they don't tell about who really makes the paper in the short description, I'm pretty sure it's rebranded Emaks K888. Everything in the description matches my experiences with Emaks.
Another german dealer which I've found on the 'net, but havn't bought anything from them is http://www.wephota.de/. (Look for the pdf pricelist and work it from there.) They don't tell who makes their "Universal" paper either, but it's for sure a good candidate for being rebranded Emaks. (But it could also possibly be Foma.) Anyhow, check it out.

Björn, thank you. ADOX Nuance indeed seems like a Emaks paper, even Freestyle says in product descriptions of Emaks "same as Nuance brand". And the product section at adox.de reads that this paper is coated on the last machine in the world produce that has been specially built for the coating of baryta paper and that the comparison with other modern papers reveals that this particular coating contains much more silver. However the base thickness is avertised as 280gsm at ADOX and 250gsm at Freestyle.

I only have got to find out to what grades correspond to the "Normal-Hart G*N" and "Spezial-Normal G*S" designation. Interesting enough, Freestyle markets the papers one grade lower, e.g. the description of grade #3 paper contains a note:
Note: This paper is listed on the Fotokemika Emaks datasheet as grade #2 but it is actually closer to a grade #3 by U.S. contrast grade standards.

On the other hand, I have found only RC papers on the http://www.wephota.de/ website.

 

[marduk]

As to ADOX Nuance paper from fotoimpex, I found out that "Spezial-Normal G*S" is grade #2 and "Normal-Hart G*N" is grade #3. I'm wondering if that corresponds to Emaks grade #2 and #3 available from Freestyle. Sorry for the OT.