Yeh, when we could pump H2S from the Kipps into the adjacent lab to see if we could aggravate an expatriate teacher into packing up and going home.
Mark
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Mark
I have seen people die of asbestosis and other nasty occupational diseases. I don't have much sympathy for the macho school of laboratory safety. The UK's Royal Society of Chemistry still includes making pink bakelite in their book of recommended 'exciting' classroom demonstrations. The exploding version was always one that teacher did in front of the class - for obvious reasons.
In the schools I know of, mucking about with mercury is discouraged not so much because the mucking about is likely to harm anybody, but because spills are so hard to clear up. Filling a classroom with even a small vapour pressure of mercury is a proven no-no, and a spill is the gift that keeps on giving.
I suspect the formalin used in phenol/formalin polymerisation is more of a worry these days. Parents, nannies and governments being more wary of exposing children to carcinogens than poisons.
For me, the biggest current problem is not the nanny state, but that science is so often taught by non-scientists. That in itself tends to mean that the more poisonous or reactive reagents stay in the store cupboard: non specialists being more cautious of using them. It can also mean that when they do come out, safety is compromised because either the teacher does not know what they are doing, or because they don't take safety seriously enough.
I believe in taking risks that have a proven benefit, and I really hate the idea that children will only learn about the world through books and computer screens. But just as the good rugby/football coaches keep the psychopathic tacklers off the team, good science teachers will try to minimise the loss of eyeballs and nerve endings in their classes.
In the schools I know of, mucking about with mercury is discouraged not so much because the mucking about is likely to harm anybody, but because spills are so hard to clear up. Filling a classroom with even a small vapour pressure of mercury is a proven no-no, and a spill is the gift that keeps on giving.
I suspect the formalin used in phenol/formalin polymerisation is more of a worry these days. Parents, nannies and governments being more wary of exposing children to carcinogens than poisons.
For me, the biggest current problem is not the nanny state, but that science is so often taught by non-scientists. That in itself tends to mean that the more poisonous or reactive reagents stay in the store cupboard: non specialists being more cautious of using them. It can also mean that when they do come out, safety is compromised because either the teacher does not know what they are doing, or because they don't take safety seriously enough.
I believe in taking risks that have a proven benefit, and I really hate the idea that children will only learn about the world through books and computer screens. But just as the good rugby/football coaches keep the psychopathic tacklers off the team, good science teachers will try to minimise the loss of eyeballs and nerve endings in their classes.
This safety issue can be quite tricky.
I remember how we made fun at (a boys) school about a female teacher in training who used to wear safety glasses any time she got close to methanol, as she reasoned this by referring to the well-known fact of methanol causing blindness.
But I also remember me as a pupil preparing a chemical show where I wanted to exhibit self-made perfumes. As those esters I made following one textbook did not work out at all, I went to the storage room in despair and grabbed all carbon acids and alcohols I thought interesting and just started estering in havoc for an hour or so. I definitely won’t do this today…
And yes, practice taught me a lesson. About the perception of scents. When pouring those scentless misses into the sink, one fluid while getting diluted in the sink produced a scent/smell of caraway seed of such an intensity that I was at the verge of throwing up and could not even think of caraway seed for the following ten years.
But the initial question to me is, why is there any phenol at all in that Schoeller paper PE uses? Gave that some thought in the direction of preservative to the glue, but was not quite convinced by its outcome.
I remember how we made fun at (a boys) school about a female teacher in training who used to wear safety glasses any time she got close to methanol, as she reasoned this by referring to the well-known fact of methanol causing blindness.
But I also remember me as a pupil preparing a chemical show where I wanted to exhibit self-made perfumes. As those esters I made following one textbook did not work out at all, I went to the storage room in despair and grabbed all carbon acids and alcohols I thought interesting and just started estering in havoc for an hour or so. I definitely won’t do this today…
And yes, practice taught me a lesson. About the perception of scents. When pouring those scentless misses into the sink, one fluid while getting diluted in the sink produced a scent/smell of caraway seed of such an intensity that I was at the verge of throwing up and could not even think of caraway seed for the following ten years.
But the initial question to me is, why is there any phenol at all in that Schoeller paper PE uses? Gave that some thought in the direction of preservative to the glue, but was not quite convinced by its outcome.
I tend to be more pernickety on public online forums - and when teaching - than when it's only my body parts that are at risk. I hate the idea of someone getting maimed for life trying to emulate something I do without understanding the implications of getting things wrong. Of course, kids of all ages get their knees figuratively scarred all the time with cars, guns, the opposite sex etc, but I try to minimise the damage there too
OP
OP
When I was teaching advanced organic chemistry lab while in graduate school, one of the lessons was reacting sodium metal with something or other. I forget what.
Anyhow, one student chopped up too much and had it stored under benzene. When she was through, even though I had put out a large 'safety jar' of benzene for the disposal of the sodium scrap, she dumped it down the sink and flushed water after it just as a student screamed "NO THATS DANGEROUS". I turned just in time to see a flame shoot to the ceiling of the lab and the pipes made a loud hum and began to vibrate. Fortunately the flame was the only damage.
The point being that in spite of dire warnings at the start of the class and repeated warnings during the class, one student just totally ignored my verbal comments, the printed safety sheet, and the textbook and dumped.
Which gets me to my point.
In my OP, I asked a question. Has anyone got an answer or has it been forgotten?
PE
Anyhow, one student chopped up too much and had it stored under benzene. When she was through, even though I had put out a large 'safety jar' of benzene for the disposal of the sodium scrap, she dumped it down the sink and flushed water after it just as a student screamed "NO THATS DANGEROUS". I turned just in time to see a flame shoot to the ceiling of the lab and the pipes made a loud hum and began to vibrate. Fortunately the flame was the only damage.
The point being that in spite of dire warnings at the start of the class and repeated warnings during the class, one student just totally ignored my verbal comments, the printed safety sheet, and the textbook and dumped.
Which gets me to my point.
In my OP, I asked a question. Has anyone got an answer or has it been forgotten?
PE
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To reiterate, there is a big chemical plant in Theodore, AL cranking out phenol and acetate for all kinds of applications as I posted earlier. Today, I was in Super D and saw half a shelf of camphorated phenol products in vials, jars, and tubes. So I'd say phenol hasn't been banned regardless of what's going on with Noxima
K.
K.
OP
OP
To date, I have found no products containing phenol here in any drug store including a national chain. I asked at both places and they searched and found all products containing phenol had either been discontinued or phenol had been removed.
Whether this is a NY State thing or not IDK.
I did not check specifically on Campho Phenique.
PE
Whether this is a NY State thing or not IDK.
I did not check specifically on Campho Phenique.
PE
Dear All,
I have asked our R&D for a reply I can post :
Regards
Simon ILFORD photo / HARMAN technology Limited
I have asked our R&D for a reply I can post :
Regards
Simon ILFORD photo / HARMAN technology Limited
Dear All,
I now have our reply :
" Phenol is used during the manufacturing process of all our coated products ( mono films and papers ). There are several reasons, both technical and practical that explain why we use phenol. One reason is because the presence of phenol in the emulsion at sensitisation facilitates the development of the molecular organisation of the sensitising dye that is essential to photosensitivity. The presence of phenol at coating also influences the molecular structure of the gelatin during setting and this in turn confers favourable photo properties. Also, and more simply phenol is an effective and temporary preservative for our gelatin containing emulsions. These are normally held in cold storage between emulsion making and coating, and the high gelatin content of these emulsions makes them susceptible to growths of bacteria, fungi and other 'beasties'. Phenol prevents degradation by bug growth.
However, nearly all the phenol that goes into these coated products is removed at the drying stage after coating. The very small amount that is left on coated materials on the parent roll is then further reduced by evaporate loss during finishing the product into rolls or sheets. There is no functional purpose served by phenol post finishing , no preservative is needed in the dried product and the amounts of phenol left in coated products by the time these get to our customers is very, very low, verging on zero.
It is true that these coated products ( particularly papers ) have a noticeable odour when a new packet is opened . However traces of residual phenol are only a contributor to that odour. There are also other substances present, and it is all of those collectively that contribute to the characteristic 'fishy' smell of a freshly opened packet of photographic paper.
As far as the legal use of phenol is concerned , I would not comment on the diverse comments already posted other than to say that the UK manufacturing facility in which our papers and films are manufactured (the Mobberley factory ) is highly regulated, both in terms of what goes in the process, and what comes out in emissions of VOC's ( volatile organic carbon ) to the atmosphere, and also in terms of what ends up in the finished products themselves.
There is undoubtedly a very small amount of phenol associated with our coated papers , but the amount remaining as a residue from the manufacturing process is inevitably small and is not associated with any risk to health. There is an occupational health exposure limit for people who are exposed to phenol ( 8 hour long term exposure limit value = 2 ppm ' parts per million ' ) and this is not exceeded in our factory. It is therefore extremely unlikely indeed that this limit could be exceeded by accidental occupational exposure to phenol released from finished packaged product during normal handling and use. The maximum amount of phenol that could possibly be left in our coated products at the point of sale is of the order of a few milligrams per square metre. It would take a particularly highly motivated and resourceful ( and clearly misguided ) person to develop a process for recovering and putting this amount of phenol to any nefarious use."
ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited
I now have our reply :
" Phenol is used during the manufacturing process of all our coated products ( mono films and papers ). There are several reasons, both technical and practical that explain why we use phenol. One reason is because the presence of phenol in the emulsion at sensitisation facilitates the development of the molecular organisation of the sensitising dye that is essential to photosensitivity. The presence of phenol at coating also influences the molecular structure of the gelatin during setting and this in turn confers favourable photo properties. Also, and more simply phenol is an effective and temporary preservative for our gelatin containing emulsions. These are normally held in cold storage between emulsion making and coating, and the high gelatin content of these emulsions makes them susceptible to growths of bacteria, fungi and other 'beasties'. Phenol prevents degradation by bug growth.
However, nearly all the phenol that goes into these coated products is removed at the drying stage after coating. The very small amount that is left on coated materials on the parent roll is then further reduced by evaporate loss during finishing the product into rolls or sheets. There is no functional purpose served by phenol post finishing , no preservative is needed in the dried product and the amounts of phenol left in coated products by the time these get to our customers is very, very low, verging on zero.
It is true that these coated products ( particularly papers ) have a noticeable odour when a new packet is opened . However traces of residual phenol are only a contributor to that odour. There are also other substances present, and it is all of those collectively that contribute to the characteristic 'fishy' smell of a freshly opened packet of photographic paper.
As far as the legal use of phenol is concerned , I would not comment on the diverse comments already posted other than to say that the UK manufacturing facility in which our papers and films are manufactured (the Mobberley factory ) is highly regulated, both in terms of what goes in the process, and what comes out in emissions of VOC's ( volatile organic carbon ) to the atmosphere, and also in terms of what ends up in the finished products themselves.
There is undoubtedly a very small amount of phenol associated with our coated papers , but the amount remaining as a residue from the manufacturing process is inevitably small and is not associated with any risk to health. There is an occupational health exposure limit for people who are exposed to phenol ( 8 hour long term exposure limit value = 2 ppm ' parts per million ' ) and this is not exceeded in our factory. It is therefore extremely unlikely indeed that this limit could be exceeded by accidental occupational exposure to phenol released from finished packaged product during normal handling and use. The maximum amount of phenol that could possibly be left in our coated products at the point of sale is of the order of a few milligrams per square metre. It would take a particularly highly motivated and resourceful ( and clearly misguided ) person to develop a process for recovering and putting this amount of phenol to any nefarious use."
ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited
OP
OP
Simon;
Many thanks. I have just returned from some drug store checks and have gotten a variety of answers to this question. The most senior and respected druggist I know says that there is a NY State limit to the amount usable and drugs can be compounded without special equipment if they have a prescription for it, but if not, then the level must be lower and the druggist who is certified to do this must use the special equipment.
So, it sounds like a vague and confusing law or regulation.
Campho phenique is still on the shelf with phenol. The druggist says, without any information - just memory, that the level is lower than in Noxzema or other products. In those products, phenol was replaced by benzocaine or something similar.
PE
Many thanks. I have just returned from some drug store checks and have gotten a variety of answers to this question. The most senior and respected druggist I know says that there is a NY State limit to the amount usable and drugs can be compounded without special equipment if they have a prescription for it, but if not, then the level must be lower and the druggist who is certified to do this must use the special equipment.
So, it sounds like a vague and confusing law or regulation.
Campho phenique is still on the shelf with phenol. The druggist says, without any information - just memory, that the level is lower than in Noxzema or other products. In those products, phenol was replaced by benzocaine or something similar.
PE
an answer, but the final one…?
Dear PE,
I finally got someone from Felix Schoeller (dept. photo basic-papers) on the line. He told me that in none of their papers, blank or coated, any kind of phenol is used.
As you know there are several Schoeller paper manufacturers/finishers around in Germany (originating from one family), this is not necessarily the end of the story, though it seems quite improbable that phenols are used in papers besides what Simon from Ilford stated.
Thus, as I trust your nose, this is still mysterious to me.
Dear PE,
I finally got someone from Felix Schoeller (dept. photo basic-papers) on the line. He told me that in none of their papers, blank or coated, any kind of phenol is used.
As you know there are several Schoeller paper manufacturers/finishers around in Germany (originating from one family), this is not necessarily the end of the story, though it seems quite improbable that phenols are used in papers besides what Simon from Ilford stated.
Thus, as I trust your nose, this is still mysterious to me.
OP
OP
AgX;
I have some raw Schoeller stock sent me by Schoeller. I was testing it for my hand coatings. The baryta raw paper stock smells heavily of phenol when you wet it. That is all I can say.
It is harmless, and probably meets that vague NY State law. I was just curious.
Thanks.
PE
I have some raw Schoeller stock sent me by Schoeller. I was testing it for my hand coatings. The baryta raw paper stock smells heavily of phenol when you wet it. That is all I can say.
It is harmless, and probably meets that vague NY State law. I was just curious.
Thanks.
PE
OP
OP
Phenol is used as a bacteriocide and fungicide in gelatin. So, since baryta is a coating of gelatin containing barium sulfate, then I guess that is the reason. It may also have a gelatin overcoat for all I know.
PE
PE
HI Ron - Thought I better stop by and see what's up!
Does anyone here have some Carmex around? I last looked in about 1995 and it had 0.5% Phenol in it then, and as far as I can tell looking on the Interweb, it still has it in it.
I find using phenol in a lip balm an interesting use, as phenol affects the central nervous system and has a local anesthetizing property. As it's properties wear off, it makes the skin tingle. Which, of-course, incourages the user of the phenol-containing lip balm to reapply the balm. It's a vicious cycle - sore lips, apply Carmex, lips deaden, lips awaken and tingle, reapply Carmex...
Kirk
Does anyone here have some Carmex around? I last looked in about 1995 and it had 0.5% Phenol in it then, and as far as I can tell looking on the Interweb, it still has it in it.
I find using phenol in a lip balm an interesting use, as phenol affects the central nervous system and has a local anesthetizing property. As it's properties wear off, it makes the skin tingle. Which, of-course, incourages the user of the phenol-containing lip balm to reapply the balm. It's a vicious cycle - sore lips, apply Carmex, lips deaden, lips awaken and tingle, reapply Carmex...
Kirk
OP
OP
Hi Kirk;
Many of the products here are replacing the phenol with benzocaine type anasthetics or thymol/menthol combinations. Calmoseptine still contains some phenol, I have found. I've been looking at labels of products I know of. Interesting changes. It may be the level used and the quantity dispensed. IDK.
PE
Many of the products here are replacing the phenol with benzocaine type anasthetics or thymol/menthol combinations. Calmoseptine still contains some phenol, I have found. I've been looking at labels of products I know of. Interesting changes. It may be the level used and the quantity dispensed. IDK.
PE
As Paracelsus said, "The dose makes the poison".
Maybe it's a New York State thing?
But I did go looking for the Chloraseptic that I fondly remember from childhood recently, and I too noticed that it was missing the 2-chlorophenol. And I have to say, benzocaine tastes simply awful!
Takes the fun out of being sick if you can't medicate yourself with compounds that are on the EPA hazardous list...
Maybe it's a New York State thing?
But I did go looking for the Chloraseptic that I fondly remember from childhood recently, and I too noticed that it was missing the 2-chlorophenol. And I have to say, benzocaine tastes simply awful!
Takes the fun out of being sick if you can't medicate yourself with compounds that are on the EPA hazardous list...
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