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One film and one developer or many films and developers ?

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brokenglytch

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This has been an interesting discussion to follow. It's always interesting to hear different perspectives on a matter. That said, I can't help but feel like it's more than a little pretentious and condescending to call anyone that likes to try new films/chemistry mere 'dabblers' or 'hobbyists'. Makes you sound far too aloof like you're talking down from film-mountain deciding who gets to wear the badge of 'serious photographer'. :wink:

I do understand your argument though; being able to consistently generate results without having to put much thought into it can be a valuable thing. When you add variables, you do fundamentally make it harder to achieve consistency, sure. If you 'pick a style' that relies on one combination of film/chemistry to achieve a given look, sure you've restricted yourself to a more limited set of variables to achieve consistency. My point of contention though is that mentality treats photography like you only have a hammer, and every problem is nail. Once you have a fundamental skillset for shot composition, development, and darkroom technique, there is no reason you can't 'dabble' your heart out while still being a serious photographer and trying to build a body of work for exhibition, sale, etc. Properly researched and after a few rolls of testing, a new combination of film/chemistry can be found that might be a much better fit for something in the future. It drives me to understand the underlying chemistry of film and developer; why does it work the way it does, what kind of results can I expect, were my expectations met or were there differences? I don't 'dabble' blindly; I do a lot of research before I try a new combination of film/chemistry/process, and I take notes for how to tweak the process if I'm not satisfied with the results. I do go into a series with some idea of what to expect after gathering as much information as I can. Sometimes results are disappointing, but that happens with 1:1:1 too. Sometimes, though, I end up with results I never could have gotten with 1:1:1. Had I adopted that sort of mentality early, I never would have been able to capture some of my favorite shots of all time because I wouldn't have tried Kodak HIE, TMZ 3200 @ EI 12500, or any of the other 'niche' stuff I'm into.

I see the value in your argument. If someone commissioned me to do a portrait shoot, would I do something crazy and experimental or would I just get a good roll that generates consistent results and do a safe shot with safe chemistry and a safe process? Of course I'd go for the stable results in a shoot like that. Everything has its place, every tool has its use. That's certainly not the end-all be-all of photography though, and for the sake of creating art I feel I would be far too restricted if I adopted some doctrine like 1:1:1 just because some famous old guys did it first. Great that it worked for them, but that's not what works for me. I'm still a serious photographer.
 

DREW WILEY

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Whatever works, works. Whatever you like to do, do it. Leave the manifesto business to people like Karl Marx. I doubt he took good pictures.
 

JW PHOTO

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Whatever works, works. Whatever you like to do, do it. Leave the manifesto business to people like Karl Marx. I doubt he took good pictures.

I don't know Drew, some of Karl's early work was pretty good. Of course he had to burn it to keep warm. Damn Russian weather..................:wink:
 

Gerald C Koch

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If you like what you are being told then it is wise advice. If you don't like what you are told then it is pretentious and condescending. :sad:
 

brokenglytch

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If you like what you are being told then it is wise advice. If you don't like what you are told then it is pretentious and condescending. :sad:

It's not that I mind the discussion about the pros/cons of 1:1:1 Gerald, I just have a problem with the suggestion that I'm not a 'real photographer' because I experiment with processes and chemistry rather than restricting myself to 1:1:1 because that's what works for someone else, that's all.
 

Sirius Glass

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It's not that I mind the discussion about the pros/cons of 1:1:1 Gerald, I just have a problem with the suggestion that I'm not a 'real photographer' because I experiment with processes and chemistry rather than restricting myself to 1:1:1 because that's what works for someone else, that's all.

I do not agree with saying that you are not a "real photographer". I started the darkroom work of 1:1:1 and did that for a long time. Now I use two film developers and several paper developer. As things evolve I will do some experimentation in the future. That said, starting with 1:1:1 and continuing until I really understood what I could do before I wandered was superior advice.
 

RalphLambrecht

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I think that it is fairly obvious that one must do some investigation before settling one a particular film/developer combination. But constantly changing the film or developer is not productive. At one time I thought it would be useful to master both a fast and a slow film for all lighting situations. Then I realized that my photographic interests favored only situations that could be covered by a single film. Tri-X and the T-grain films are so fine grained that a slow film is no longer necessary.

I started with a suggestion from people Itrysted and who's work I liked;Then stuck to it and worked hard to master the combination;jumping ship to often is like chasing your own tail and gets you nowhere fast.:sad:
 

nolanr66

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I am just starting out with developing my film at home. I surfed the net and decided on ID-11 and Illford films. However I do want to experiment around for a while before settling in on something. I have shot Delta 100 and liked the look and will be happy to use that as an outdoor film. In 400 speed I have shot Delta 400, HP5 and am currently shooting Kentmere. I like Delta 400 slightly better then HP5 and I do not know what I will think of Kentmere however I hope it is real nice because of the price. I will probably develop that roll tomorrow. Then I will choose and shoot 1 of those 400 speed films regularly. Basically I want a 2 film inventory. Delta 100 and one 400 speed film that I can push to 800 or 1600. As far as camera's go I have a Nikon F100 and see no reason to buy other camera's out there. I will stick with it as I have owned it for years and I know what it will do.


As far as bicycles go I do ride them. I rode 4500mi last year and this year I plan to ride 5000 but I am behind schedule already due to weather. I just bought a new bike 3 years ago and did not want one of the new Chinese made throw away bikes which can be quite nice actually. I went with a custom shop and had a fitted bike built for me. It is a road bike and I have fender clearance which comes in handy for the winter months. It's a good bike for road racing, shop rides, touring using motels. It would be a good bike for category 3 or 4 racing but it carries a couple extra pounds which come into play in high level racing. Being 68 I do not race anyway except on-line competing with Strava. Made from Columbus Spirit OS tubing. I paid a fair price for an American made custom fitted frame. I use Domke camera bags also (made in the USA). Anyway just one bike for road riding for me. If I had money to burn I might buy a Cyclocross bike but my body is like film. It is just one of those things and you do not know how long it will last and I hate to spend to much money on gear that sooner or later will just be sitting there. The good news is I am quite fit and see many years of cycling in my future.
 
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brokenglytch

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Basically I want a 2 film inventory. Delta 100 and one 400 speed film that I can push to 800 or 1600.

Might I suggest while you're trying new stuff that you shoot a few rolls of Delta 3200? Very fine film and you can push it a lot further than 1600 if you want to shoot street photography at night, bars, concerts, etc. If you're not pushing it, ID-11 has some pretty reasonable development times. If you want to push it to the limit, Ilford Microphen or Kodak TMAX Developer are the best bet; you'll get pretty fine grain (for being 3200 or higher) and good contrast. Just a suggestion before you settle in on your second film as it's one of my favorites.
 

Gerald C Koch

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The word photography was coined by Sir John Hershel derived from two Greek words and translates to "writing with light." In other words taking pictures. If you are "experimenting"/"testing"/"dabbling" then you are not strictly speaking a photographer. Constantly flitting to this film or that developer is not photography. There are no magic films or holy grails of developers. The constant search for them is counter-productive.
 

pdeeh

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. If you are "experimenting"/"testing"/"dabbling" then you are not strictly speaking a photographer. Constantly flitting to this film or that developer is not photography.

Gerald your posts are generally an adornment to this forum, but on this occasion I have to call "poppycock" !
 

Gerald C Koch

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Gerald your posts are generally an adornment to this forum, but on this occasion I have to call "poppycock" !

Sorry but at this point of my life I regret not taking more photographs having wasted too much time with things that are not strictly photography. Just trying to advise against making the same mistake.
 

MattKrull

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The word photography was coined by Sir John Hershel derived from two Greek words and translates to "writing with light." In other words taking pictures. If you are "experimenting"/"testing"/"dabbling" then you are not strictly speaking a photographer. Constantly flitting to this film or that developer is not photography. There are no magic films or holy grails of developers. The constant search for them is counter-productive.
You assume that trying new things is a search for a holy grail or perfection?
Is a musician or composer who is trying new things no longer a musician? Does that mean the beattles were not muscians? Beethoven? Have you listened to two Beattles albums back to back? What about a Beethoven symphany followed by a string quartet piece?
Visual artists who sketch and draw often use a variety of different types of pencil, charcoal, or other, on a variety of different cavasses and papers. Is someone no longer a sketcher because today they feel like using a different pen?
Authors, as in writing with words, experiment. They write draft after draft and refine ideas; and then do something else and refine it.
I completely fail to understand this steadfast notion of "real photography" and "real photographers" that is being perpetuated around here these days.
Are you writing with light? Are you communicating via an image captured on a light senstive material? Yes / No
Where in that concept does "are you doing it the same way as person X? or the same way you did it last week?" differentiate the "In crowd / real artists" from the "outsiders / posers"?
This argument is nothing new, Black and White photographers faught to be respected as artists by "traditional visual artists". Then photographers who used colour films faught against the "traditionalists" to be viewed as artists. I'd say the digital photographers are fighting, except they aren't, they've won their fight, they've moved on. They are in museums and are selling prints. Only here on APUG are they not considered artists. And now, here we have people even within the tiny subset of people still using B&W films saying "if you experiment you are not a photographer".
Poppy. Cock.
 

michaelorr

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Both general sides of this argument are valid. Pursing different image types, styles or looks through experimentation is great. And becoming expert in a process, style, consistent result that fits with one's tastes is a valid pursuit.
I personally am strongly identifying with Gerald's perspective. Difference is that i had not been pursuing photography so didn't stack up piles of negatives, nor waste time dabbling in experimentation, sacrificing the photographing. So where i am now is taking photographs of subjects that am drawn to is where i need to spend my time, and the experimentation, variation of films/developers/papers etc unless i know i aim for a specific quality, is not in my future. I need to find the best way to render the images i expose that are predictable. I often no longer have the luxury of going back to retake a photo, so when i get a negative, it has to be about as good as i can get it taking the practiced "safe route" to get there, very low probability of ruining a negative.
 

nolanr66

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Thanks for responding Brokenglytch and I will toss in a roll of 3200 on my next film order and try it out. My photos are mostly family, trips and such. I am not any type of photographer but I like to take pictures of the places we go. Film that fast is probably not something I would need and figure that pushing 400 to 800 would really be fine for my photos. But I will shoot a roll and see if the quality is right for me. No bars or street photography for me. I am just a family guy taking pictures.
 

markbarendt

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The word photography was coined by Sir John Hershel derived from two Greek words and translates to "writing with light." In other words taking pictures.

This is a reasonable thought, HCB would be proud of you as a disciple. It is exceptional advice to say go shoot, it is the foundation upon which everything else is built.

If you are "experimenting"/"testing"/"dabbling" then you are not strictly speaking a photographer. Constantly flitting to this film or that developer is not photography.

Well, I think you are sliding of the rails a bit here. For example one might turn out like Bob Carrie, providing a vital and integral service inside the discipline of photography.

There are no magic films or holy grails of developers. The constant search for them is counter-productive.

True, that is generally a distraction. IMO, that search is typically trying to answer these questions: "Why do my pictures suck?" and "Why don't my pictures look like _____'s?"

The answer to that question generally lies inside the person we see in a reflection most often and in understanding the parts of the photographic process that we haven't really practiced yet, like wet printing. We hate to admit that though, we want to fix everything with the tools we already have.
 

Andrew O'Neill

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When I started I used one film, one developer for about a year. I learnt a lot about this film/dev combo. There was about a 5 year period where I did a lot of dabbling with different film/developer combos. I took hundreds of photos. I used my densitometre a lot. I drew curves (by hand). It was a blast. I learnt a lot. Eventually I settled on a few emulsions and a couple of developers.
Both approaches work. :smile:
 

nolanr66

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Thinking about shooting a roll of 3200 I decided to take a look at Flickr and see how photos look using that film. I actually think they look pretty good but I also think the grain and look is not for me. I will stick to 100 and 400 speed films. I also checked out Kentmere 400 on Flickr and to me it kind of looked like HP5 which should be appealing to many. I have to see the results later today after I develop it but most likely I will commit to Delta 400 for 10 or 20 rolls and then determine if the consistency and look is working for me. If it does I will bulk load it to save a little on the cost.
 

Old-N-Feeble

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The word photography was coined by Sir John Hershel derived from two Greek words and translates to "writing with light." In other words taking pictures. If you are "experimenting"/"testing"/"dabbling" then you are not strictly speaking a photographer. Constantly flitting to this film or that developer is not photography. There are no magic films or holy grails of developers. The constant search for them is counter-productive.

I respect your opinions, Gerald but... try saying that to Leonardo da Vinci with regards to his experimental/theoretical science experiments and his secret paint pigmentations.
 

nolanr66

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I am not Leonardo and just want some nice photos of the family, our trips and such. Being a family guy I would rather not waste money on the pursuit of something I do not seek. However I am not against trying a few things out in order to achieve consistent good quality prints for my photo albums. I just developed my Kentmere 400 film and it's drying. I hope the pictures knock my socks off as the film is over $2.00 a roll cheaper then Delta 400 at BHPhoto.

It's raining again so I am going to ride the rollers (indoor cycling) for about an hour and then I will take a look at the pictures.
 

brokenglytch

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The word photography was coined by Sir John Hershel derived from two Greek words and translates to "writing with light." In other words taking pictures.

This is fine for the context of history and arguments of semantics. Taking pictures; the act of pointing a camera at an object or scene and exposing a light sensitive material to capture an image. No more, no less.

If you are "experimenting"/"testing"/"dabbling" then you are not strictly speaking a photographer.

This is the bit that I still maintain is pretentious in your arguments in this thread. You've not seen a single image I've shot, let alone my entire body of work, but you're judging my body of work as inferior or 'not real photography' simply because I don't stick to the same routine formula every time. Telling someone their methodology makes them 'not strictly speaking a photographer' isn't advice, it's condescending.

Constantly flitting to this film or that developer is not photography. There are no magic films or holy grails of developers. The constant search for them is counter-productive.

This is just misguided assumption about 'the other side' of your narrow definition of photography. Most of us don't 'constantly flit' from one film/developer to another. You can't get a proper feel for a thing with a roll or two and say it's amazing or awful. I shoot 10-15 rolls with the same or similar film/developer combinations in similar conditions, then evaluate whether I want to shoot some more of it or need to make adjustments. I'm not searching for a holy grail or magic film. I'm aiming to make my knowledge about film and chemistry so proficient that I always have reliable options. I've seen too many of my favorite films (which would have been the only films I would use, were they still available) fall out of production. No more; I'm done locking myself in to one film that I absolutely adore and hoping that the company doesn't go under or deem it too unprofitable to continue production on that emulsion. Thoroughly sampling a variety of similar emulsions and chemistry, a variety of techniques, etc. helps to prevent being forced to adapt on the fly when a company in our niche market goes under or stops producing something that isn't making enough money. It equips me with the ability to say 'Well damn, film X or developer Y aren't around anymore, but you know if I shoot film A and process it with developer B, it looks pretty similar...maybe a touch grainier or a slightly different tonal curve, but I can survive and keep making pictures in a style I like despite the loss of X and Y'.

Sometimes you don't even know how much you like a look until you do the experimental shot. I knew I liked grainy images with a shallow depth of field and high contrast for their surreal nature, but until I captured my own with P3200 TMZ (and more recently Delta 3200 since TMZ isn't available anymore) I had no idea how much I'd enjoy shooting that way. Had I stuck with my class's 1:1:1 model, I never would have tried. And Infrared! My god I love shooting IR, but again I absolutely never would have tried it if I locked myself into 1:1:1. And after Kodak killed HIE, if I wasn't willing to try every single IR emulsion that has come out since, I would never be able to capture shots like that again without buying a digital body and sending it to a chop shop to have the hot mirror pulled off the sensor. My photography would have been locked in to TX-400 and D76 all day every day. There's nothing wrong with that in itself, but my experience as a photographer would have been sorely lacking for it. I suppose you could make the argument that ignorance is bliss...you don't know what you're missing if you never try anything outside your little box that you construct for yourself with 1:1:1 methodology.
 
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Gerald C Koch

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I respect your opinions, Gerald but... try saying that to Leonardo da Vinci with regards to his experimental/theoretical science experiments and his secret paint pigmentations.

Leonardo used an experimental and untried method when he painted his masterpiece The Last Supper. However within a year the painting was flaking off the wall. The monastery was not pleased and at a later date had a doorway cut thru the wall. That shows what little was thought of it. Most of what we see today is not Leonardo's work but that of various restorers over the centuries. Shows what happens when you stray from proven methods, at least toward serious work. If a person's main objective is not taking photographs then I don't know what that person would be.

Originally posted by Brokenglytch

Telling someone their methodology makes them 'not strictly speaking a photographer' isn't advice, it's condescending.

I was speaking of what was being done was not photography. (That was endless, meaningless experimentation of materials with no clear purpose.) It is a matter of priorities. I don't understand in what way my advice is any different from what you will see in several books on photography. Even Ansel Adams warns against the pitfall of using more than one film/developer combination. If you are offended by being offered advice then don't buy any of these how-to books and find your own path blindly.
 
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nolanr66

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Well on another note I got a good look at the Kentmeer 400 photos that I took yesterday of my grandson and I must say I am very pleased with the results. The film is probably closer to HP5 then Delta 400. Grain is well controlled and not gritty at all, medium contrast showing nice tones from light to dark. It was the only roll of Kentmeer that I had and will certainly be buying some more. I have prints sitting on my piano from Delta 400, HP5 and Kentmeer 400 and basically they are all very nice films. Flip a coin for the best of the bunch. I think I will order 10 rolls of Kentmeer and alternate between Delta 400 and Kentmeer so that I can learn the little differences between these two exciting films and in what conditions one would outperform the other. Perfectly happy with ID-11 and I see no reason to move on to another developer. I think I will shoot the next couple rolls at ASA 320.
 

MattKing

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Thinking about shooting a roll of 3200 I decided to take a look at Flickr and see how photos look using that film. I actually think they look pretty good but I also think the grain and look is not for me. I will stick to 100 and 400 speed films. I also checked out Kentmere 400 on Flickr and to me it kind of looked like HP5 which should be appealing to many. I have to see the results later today after I develop it but most likely I will commit to Delta 400 for 10 or 20 rolls and then determine if the consistency and look is working for me. If it does I will bulk load it to save a little on the cost.

Flickr is a good way to see how people are using a film. Technically though, it probably reveals more about people's scanning and post processing skills than it does about the underlying qualities of a particular film.
 

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Those that constantly switch films and developers may be having fun but they run the risk of being jack of all trades, master of none. Photography is ultimately about taking pictures. Experimentation may be useful and even fun but it shouldn't be your primary objective. If it is then you are NOT a photographer.

hi gerald

i agree with you and i disagree with you at the same time
there is no reason why experimentation can not be one's primary objective
if that personis able to get whatever they want out of whatever it is they are developing.
photography IS about not only TAKING pictures but MAKING them too.
if that can be done through experimenting and finding what works and what doesn't work for
the person taking/making the photographs. i am not sure why one is not a photographer
if one experiments and make photographs he or she likes. as you said
photography is drawing with light.

In your own words, photography is about taking pictures. As long as you're taking shots and getting results you like, why do they have to be cookie cutter consistent in style, tone, and technique?

one can do many many many things with one film and one camera and one developer and not have
anything even close to a cookie cutter approach in anything having to do with photography from style, to technique, to tone or even to the way one uses
the developer, camera or film. it all has to do with knowing one's materials, and camera backwards, forwards, upside down and sideways, so even when experimenting you kind of sort of know
what the results might or might not be like ...

of course, UMMV
 
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