On the perception of image quality and the 'Shot on Iphone 6' campaign

analoguey

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I stayed away from replying to this topic cos I didn't wanna be the one posting most on this!


dunno why you're all belly aching about the Iphone when there are smart phones out there with far superia cameras. Try a Sony xperia for example with a 21 Mp camera (and ISO 12800). Apple are behind the curve when it comes to cameras.

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Absolutely, Rob!
Sony's sensor technology and display is streets ahead of Apple's. And the video as well. Once you use them, you don't wanna switch out.

That said a phone is merely okay for instagram or casual intermittent Shooting!
Anything that needs further input definitely necessitates a proper camera.

A proper camera lets me Focus on image making. A 'touchscreen' phone on the other hand, has fussy interfaces, too many clicks or gestures before I can set a shot etc.,

The only advantage - was - not, is, size. But with 6,7 inch phones? Might as well carry a proper camera.


since it was a thread regarding Iphones i thour you were suggesting camera or phone as a cameraphone, sorry for my misunderstanding ...

Having used camera phones since the 1st 'mega pixel' ones were sold - before I owned a 'proper' camera(yes, even a P&S) I would never say/use one for the other.

That aside this is about camera phones and cameras both, isn't it?



I don't understand this at all.

You said I was biased against Apple, but go on to yourself say Apple's latest n greatest is cool, not if say Linhof or Nikon or Leica.

Then you go on to say people don't need latest n greatest. Well, that's the case then, people should use the first iPhone. Not the 6th gen of it.

And since when do people with big egos buy latest n greatest in other things but not do the same with phones?
 

Wallendo

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Even at the height of the film era, most photographs were taken with low quality cameras. Point and shoot 120's, 127's and Instamatics, for example. I have recently been archiving old family photos from the 50's and 60's. The negatives are in great shape, but the initial quality of the images is often poor - out of focus and camera not steadied properly, etc. Unfortunately, I seem to be one of the worse offenders, although in my defense I was only 10 at the time. iPhones and other smartphones fit the bill for casual users and often produce sharper images than old point-and-shoot cameras with plastic lenses. There have been some great images taken with cheap cameras, however.

My take on DSLR sales slowing is that the D-SLR is a hybrid dinosaur. SLR's are sharped like they are, and function the way they are, because that was the most efficient way of manufacturing those cameras. A movable mirror was required to allow the user to view the image and then take a photo. A pentaprism was required for the image to look normal through a viewfinder. Neither of these is really required in a digital camera. A DSLR does not take pictures that are in any significant way superior to a mirrorless camera with similar optics and sensors.
 

Prof_Pixel

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Yup, that's the way I see it also.
 
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Digital photographic technology has rendered obsolete the very meaning of purpose-built cameras. And with it the very meaning of purpose-practiced photography. Photography is today a largely a momentary disposable amusement devoid of purpose. That's why the most popular camera today is a telephone.

Ken
 

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blansky

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More of the usual nonsense.

Groundhog Day part 10.
 
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Elucidate.

It's important to recognize that digital anything means software, and by definition software means simulation. Long time readers (hi blansky!) will cringe and recoil because they've heard this from me many times before. But whether they like it or not, that's what digital software does. It simulates the real world via abstractions. It exists for no other purpose than that, no matter how inconvenient that truth may be.

Current digital cameras are designed around the physical human interface forms with which current generations of photographers have become comfortable. The higher end ones still look and handle like 35mm film SLRs. The compact ones still look and handle like grandma's film point-and-shooters. But because digital means simulation, none of this is actually required. Manufacturers simply designed around, and catered to, the transitioning market expectations and inertia.

Because digital photographic technology is abstract simulation, the photographic transaction can now being decoupled from the physical camera. One no longer requires a purpose-built implement to realize an image.

Digital cameras—software cameras on chips—can be inserted into just about anything, including telephones, with the only remaining vestigial requirement being a miniature imaging lens of some sort. Everything else is simply an abstract hardware/software functional port bearing little physical resemblance to an original traditional camera.

And because of that, using such a camera becomes as much an afterthought as was the inclusion by its designers of the camera into the telephone. I know many people with smartphones that incorporate digital cameras. But I can't recall a single instance of one of them ever claiming they purchased it primarily as a camera, and only use the telephone part as an afterthought.

Now don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that moving work cannot be created with a telephone camera. It can, and it already has. What I'm saying is that by definition a telephone camera is not a purpose-built camera, and was never intended to be that. And the reason it's not is because it no longer needs to be in order to match the expectations of its users. Its increasingly distant abstract functional simulation of a traditional purpose-built camera is plenty good enough for them.

And because of THAT, the purpose-built digital camera mass market is now drying up and disappearing as quickly as the film camera market just finished doing. Don't believe it? Next time you are out somewhere in a random crowd taking pictures, count the number of dedicated digital cameras. Then count the telephone cameras...

Ken
 
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More of the usual nonsense.

Groundhog Day part 10.

Aye, blanksy...

The world is moving along at an increasingly rapid pace. One must take care not to fall too far behind. Only the wolves enjoy those stubborn but tasty samples who lag behind the ever-accelerating herd.

:eek:



Ken
 

analoguey

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I agree with Ken, in parts. And disagree equally.


So, people tearing their hair up trying to prove the other wrong on forums using Software is virtual,nothing real? I doubt that.

Whatever the mode of interaction maybe, the emotions generated aren't virtual. They matter. (even viewing an image 'virtually ')



No. disagree. Modern tiny compacts are built around the 3" display -as much as the older ones were built around the film spooling area. The lenses anyways take up as much space as they used to.
If you look up the ' Frankenstein ' compact one guy built w a Konica c35, you'll see how much of the film loading space can be used up by the display.

Reg - purpose built cameras,

That just doesn't fly.

Try using the tiniest flash around to sync -you won't be able to. Shoot in mixed light, and it'll get screwed.

Propose built cameras arr as useful as before.

The difference that people frequently don't perceive is how many more people individually take ' snapshots ' cos incremental cost of a photo is way lower.

So there's been an exponential jump in using a camera for 'I was here with so n so ' pictures.
How often did everyone in a group bring a compact camera when film was ruling? Not that often.
Now a group of 5 has 10 cameras AND the additional purpose built camera Shooter - By that I mean slr or mirrorless, not a p&s.



You know one now.



Agreed.
 

Tamara

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I have read your posts on the concreteness of a negative versus the virtuality of a software image before, and find them compelling to an extent. However, between the first and second paragraphs of the quoted excerpt above there is a leap in the logic that creates a non-sequitur.

See here: Because the image is being simulated via software versus actually created on silver halide crystals.... ergo, people don't care what the image is that is actually hitting the sensor, so screw 'em, the sheeple.

Yes, most people crowded around the tiger cage at the zoo are perfectly content with a bunch of photons to remind them that yes, they were in fact standing in front of the tiger cage at the zoo. They did it with box Brownies, Instamatics, Discs, and now they do it with iPhones.

Other people would like to make an image of the tiger, one that is in their mind's eye, and that requires manipulating the photons before they hit the imaging surface, no matter what that surface might be. And to do that, at least with current technology, one must be able to manipulate the lens. Thus far, phone cameras don't do that.
 

Theo Sulphate

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Yes, most people are content with the digital image and are perplexed, annoyed even, if someone like Ken or I suggest there's a fundamental difference between the digital image and an image on emulsion.

What Ken calls a simulation is what I call "needing an electronic device and a rendering application" in order to view the image of the tiger. To me, that digital tiger image can only exist for as long as the media it resides on is perpetuated and the format it's stored in continues to be supported by electronic devices and apps. Once that chain is broken - by the cloud server going away, by the CD becoming unreadable, or by the device or app being no longer available, then the ability to view the image is gone.

By contrast, my 4x5 negative or Polaroid photo of the tiger needs nothing in order for it to be viewed, even 50 years or more later. If I'm lucky, maybe the photo will have a scratch from the tiger when I briefly dropped the film on the ground in front of it, thereby further cementing its authenticity.
 
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I have read your posts...

Hi Tamara,

I have not ignored your observations. However, they deserve a more involved and thoughtful response than the usual drive-by sound-bite posts (my own included) that mostly frequent these discussions. With luck that chunk of free time will present itself soon...



Ken
 

cliveh

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So an iPhone picture that is impactful is better to me than a large format perfectly executed picture of a rock.

I sometimes wonder if any static image of an inanimate object is a cop out and in my own photography I now try and avoid them more and more. However, many pictures and some posted here on APUG show me that is not the case, but I understand what blansky means. But the art of photography is so vast that you can't generalise.
 

Sirius Glass

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...
I'm just wondering whether what I learned to appreciate about image quality over the years in photography exhibitions or books (and even as amateur photographer) is more subjective and even dispensable than I thought.

You have gained pearls of wisdom beyond great value.
 

Tamara

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Yes, most people are content with the digital image and are perplexed, annoyed even, if someone like Ken or I suggest there's a fundamental difference between the digital image and an image on emulsion.

I absolutely agree that there is a difference of kind, there, at least with the plate or negative. The CCD is wiped clean with every new image, tabula rasa; the film is forever altered by exposure to the event in time.
 

blansky

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That was hyperbole. But none the less true to me.

Every genre of photography has its parameters. What I do now, has the necessity to flatter the subject and to try to capture a mood or an aspect of their personality. It has many pitfalls but it does have a definite built in advantage.The customer already has an emotional attachment to the results because it's their family.

Interestingly a lot of people starting out in photography and especially those who don't really like working with people, tend to gravitate to landscapes (flippantly called rocks). There are definite built in advantages, here as well. Accessibility, no rush on time usually, perfect for larger formats etc. But the massive disadvantage is, it's very very difficult to make a landscape emotional, or making people feel like "I gotta have that, how much?".

Even if you don't care about selling it, it is massively harder to gain appreciation because of the subject matter. And because of that there are many many beautifully photographed and printed pictures of subject that just don't sing.
 
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[Fair warning, this isn't a dozen-word drive-by post...]

I think maybe one of us was transmitting in AM, while the other was receiving in FM? And the fault here is likely mine for transmitting incorrectly.

I was responding to your request to "elucidate" further the proposition that "Digital photographic technology has rendered obsolete the very meaning of purpose-built cameras." By that I meant the production of a photographic image today no longer requires a traditional, purpose-built camera. Not that the quality of the image produced by either technology was inherently inferior in any way to the other. No "sheeple" were posited.

Back in the day, in order to make a photograph one required a real camera designed for that express purpose. It was, by design, a one-trick pony. You held it in your hands to use it. When the photographic transaction was concluded—the picture of the subject was realized—the camera was put away, as it had no other useful purpose to serve. No longer is that the case.

Now one can use a simulated abstraction of a camera, the critical path functionality of which is now housed within a handful of computer chips and the behaviors of which are now simulated by abstract computer software, which may be housed in anything. Google Glass. You laptop personal computer. Or your telephone.

IT professionals are familiar with the concept of virtual machines (VMs). Those are full and complete simulations on computers of other computers. I work from home and I'm currently connected right now over an Internet VPN circuit to two of them. They are test machines I am using to check some software modifications I've made to a company product. One is a WinXP system. The other a Win8.1 system.

They look like real computers on my displays, they act like real computers when I type or click, they run my software modifications correctly like real computers (knock on wood). But they ain't real computers. They are elaborate abstractions housed on a few host computer (memory) chips that give me all of the essential behaviors of real computers, but without all of the unnecessary messiness and liabilities of real computers.

Thus in principle is it also with software simulations of cameras. The essential behavior of creating images is preserved in the camera abstraction. But the physical camera is now obsolete, in the sense it is no longer required to complete the transaction.

Further, the abstracting chips and software could just as easily be used to simulate a purpose-built magnetic compass (GPS), or a purpose-built rotary desk telephone, or a purpose-built reel-to-reel audio tape recorder, or a purpose-built 8mm movie camera. Or all of the above, all of which a modern smartphone already does simulate.

It's been a fascinating evolutionary progression. With the advent of simulated cameras, I'm now beginning to see three distinct levels of photographic abstractions becoming dominant, and replacing their real-world counterparts.

The first level is the original photographic abstraction, present since the Niépce bitumin-on-pewter in 1827, that is created when a three-dimensional real-world scene is reduced by one dimension and rendered onto a physical two-dimensional recording medium. The so-called physical negative. (Or physical positives in the case of daguerreotypes and Polaroids.)

The second level is the abstraction of the physical photographic negative/positive into a simulated negative/positive. The so-called "raw file" abstraction. Chemical emulsion has been replaced by mathematical algorithms and pure logic that is designed to simulate the behaviors of those emulsions.

And now the third level of abstraction wherein the rendering implement itself, the physical camera, has been replaced by software abstractions where all of the essential camera behaviors required to produce an image have also become simulated in software (except the lens) and inserted into a miniaturized handheld computing device. In this case the so-called smartphone.

That device can simulate (and thus replace) a telephone, a compass, a tape recorder, a movie camera, and many other physical things. All these simulations happen using the exact same generic physical computer chips, only varying the software algorithms loaded into them for each different simulation.

I recall an ancient episode of the original Star Trek. The usual suspects beamed down to the planet in question. There they discovered two civilizations from two planets that were in a perpetual state of war. Over time the physical mechanisms used to fight the war had gradually evolved and been replaced by computerized software abstractions of those mechanisms.

Captain Kirk was aghast to find out that they had just come under silent virtual attack, and that such battles in the war were now fought entirely in abstracted form between the respective computer systems of the two planets. Virtual attacks were launched, virtual weapons were discharged, virtual casualties were suffered and tallied, but all only within the algorithmic confines of the memory chips within the two planetary computer systems.

When the battle had concluded, the landing party was informed that the computers had determined that they had indeed all been virtually killed, and that they must immediately report to a casualty station to be, umm... voluntarily discharged. Sort of like Edward G. Robinson in Soylent Green.

Needless to say, Captain Kirk said no freakin' way. Spock wasn't too fond of the idea either, but did see the logic in such a war-fighting arrangement.

The logic being that all of the essential behaviors of war had been abstracted out and simulated in software, thus doing away with the inconvenient messiness of physical war itself. And the implementation of that logic was the social compact that, when identified as having been virtually killed, your duty was to immediately obey the computer's determination without question and simply report.

Thus, absent the messiness of pain and suffering and destruction, and driven by a population seeking predictability and tidiness and convenience, the war itself became an emotionless exercise that never had any real reason to end...

Not unlike the use of modern day digital photographic technologies, don't you think?



Ken
 
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The CCD is wiped clean with every new image, tabula rasa; the film is forever altered by exposure to the event in time.

You have just tendered the precise definition of photographic provenance.



Ken
 

gzinsel

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I really enjoyed your essay, ken. It is very intriguing. As I read your essay, I couldn't help think about Walter Benjamin, essay "art work in the age of mechanical reproduction". I would content that your thesis is an extension of this "area of thought", but more so. By the way, I am NOT suggesting plagiarism, I think your ideas stand on its own merit. I think your insights into the "idea of reproductions" or you say "simulations" where well conceived and spot on.
 

Paul Verizzo

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1. When the first camera-in-iPhone came out, some pro studio photographer did a shoot with it instead of his "real" camera. Stunning pictures, but then, he knew how to best use what he had insofar as lighting and framing.

2. I think most phone cameras are stuck with a 28mm equivalent lens. So called zooming is digital, throwing pixels away. Can you imagine being stuck with just that one lens?

3. Camera phones are now better in the image processing that dedicated digital phones of only six or seven years ago. Much better brightness range controls, etc. And many of the specilized apps take this several steps further.

4. Nokia has had a 43mp Pureview camera across several models and OS's, although now dead. Sounds like overkill, but wait! In dim light, it will take, say, 5 or six neighboring pixels, add the brightnesses within, and there's a no flash ISO A Bunch without noise increase! It will also, in normal light and if you don't want to keep a 43mp original (!!), throw away what it deems the worst pixels. Pretty amazing, gotta hand it to them.

I had quite a debate with a young whippersnapper, ha ha, about the Pureview. He was convinced that because it had more megapixels, the photographs were inherently superior. He couldn't understand that that was true only if the camera used the features mentioned, or he was wanting to make a billboard from the original. I had to pull the "I'm an old fart doing this for 55 years, film, digital, published. I know what I'm talking about." I didn't tell him, "Usually."
 
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