older manual SLR's?

sodarum · Jul 7, 2014

Greetings,

years ago I bought a brand new Seagull 4A-109, and this was my cheap ticket into medium format photography. I was very happy with it in terms of image quality, until I recently had an "accident" with it; I did the unspeakable; I must have changed the shutter setting while the camera was wound up , so basically the mechanism seemed to have broken down.

Right now I am able to afford something a bit more expensive than a Seagull, so I'm considering different options. I really like to use the manual crank, so what I'm looking for is a manual wind SLR.

An older manual Mamiya like m645 seems to be the best choice so far, but I'd really like to hear a couple of other recommendations. RB67 is huge, and I'd like something more compact. Of course 500 series Hasselblads are another option, though a bit more expensive. What about Rollei? As far as I can tell (and I don't know much about MF SLR history), Rollei didn't make manual crank SLRs, even the older ones like SLX have a motor, right? All of the 6000 series have motors also, am I correct?

Another thing that might influence my choice is the availability of a bellows extension unit for the camera I'm about to get, since I'd like to start experimenting with tilt work and other benefits of a bellows.

Any thoughts thrown in here would be appreciated and most helpful

GarageBoy · Jul 7, 2014

all slx/600x are motorized
SL66s were Rollei's hasselblad (more like an rb67 with a focal plane shutter)- expensive and hard to come by, though

JammyB · Jul 7, 2014

Im pretty much interested in the same thing. Is the RB67 so big? I was interested in a Broncia SQ-Ai but I've noticed the RB67 is a fair bit cheaper.

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Sirius Glass · Jul 7, 2014

If you go Hasselblad you will have to wait a little longer between buying lenses. On the other hand, service, lenses and equipment are readily available. It is the camera that you dreamed of but never dreamed you could have one. I traded in a Mamiya C330 lots of lenses and every product for it known to mankind, and I never looked back.

ntenny · Jul 7, 2014

I have an M645 and have been very, very happy with it as a walking-around camera, mostly handheld. They're astonishingly inexpensive for what they are. The metering prism is fine within the usual limitations of an in-camera meter; I've never used the AE prism. Excellent glass, plentiful on the used market. People say similar things about the Pentax 645.

Rollei SLRs seem more expensive than the alternatives, and a lot thinner on the ground. I think the SL66 has a manual crank, and you never hear a bad word about the lenses, but I'd be cautious about sinking much money into a system for which the components are fairly rare and repairs likely challenging.

There's quite a bit of weight and bulk difference between a 6x6 SLR and the 645s; a 'blad or a Bronica SQ certainly isn't as monstrous as the RB67, but they're pretty solid hunks of metal. For that matter, the 645s are good-sized and not everyone finds them comfortable to carry around all day.

Are you definite about wanting an SLR, or is it worth considering the various 645 rangefinders? You won't get the option of tilt/shift, but you can save quite a bit of size because of not needing the mirror box and prism.

-NT

AgX · Jul 7, 2014

Pentacon-Six/Exakta 66, Kiev 60, Kiev 88. But with sinking prices of western cameras the money spent on CLA/modification may not be worth while.
Kowasix

Jeff Kubach · Jul 7, 2014

I have a Rollie TLR 2.8 with a handcrank, works great. My RB67 might be big, but you get used to it, I did and I'm handicap.

Jeff

Kyle M. · Jul 7, 2014

JammyB said:
Im pretty much interested in the same thing. Is the RB67 so big? I was interested in a Broncia SQ-Ai but I've noticed the RB67 is a fair bit cheaper.

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It really depends on the user and what you want to carry. My RB67 with the 90mm lens is my main camera and I have carried it everywhere from a walk through the park to a 3 mile hike. I don't find it unbearably heavy, I carry mine on my shoulder rather than around my neck and can easily hand hold it down to 1/30th of a sec. Another great thing about the RB is it's rotating back and close up ability, with the 90mm you can close focus to approximatly 7.5 inches, about 1.5 inches with the 50mm. If I could only own 1 camera it would be the RB67. Also the Bronica SQ-Ai is a 6x6 whereas the RB of course is 6x7, I personally prefer a rectangular negative to a square.

GRHazelton · Jul 7, 2014

The Pentax 645n is worth a look. Note that this is a nicer camera than the original 645, which was a good camera. The "n" handles much like a big 35mm SLR, bright viewfinder, excellent TTL metering and flash, really intuitive operation. About 1.5 frames per second motor drive, 6 AA cells. Loads film in inserts, but cannot change mid-roll. Inserts were produced for both 120 and 220 film and can easily be switched from one to the other, or back. A screwdriver and 5 minutes. Excellent lenses from 35mm to 200mm readily available, there are longer lenses, but really rare. The "n" will autofocus with autofocus lenses. With an adapter can use Pentax 67 lenses with auto diaphragm.

Now: The digital version, the 645D and the just released 645Z have driven the price of used lenses up, particularly the autofocus ones. Sad but true.

Paul Howell · Jul 7, 2014

Pentax 6X7, Bronica 6X6, and Kowa Super 66. I have a Kowa kit, lens are good, the super has mirror lock up and interchagable backs.

whlogan · Jul 7, 2014

BronicasRolleisPentaxesMamiyas and all other sort and conditions of man. Decide what means the most to YOU. Image quality should be the top and then correct answer and then Lenses are the route to that. Bodies that use the best lenses will deliver image quality area what you want, such as Hasselblad, Rolleiflex, Mamiya, Pentax.... so, who are those lenses? Zeiss, Mamiya, and several other, but these are the big guns. Cost drops out of the reasoning at this point because we have to have the best lens possible to achieve the best image quality. So, then factor in some ergonomics to be relatively comfortable while carrying this lens to the scene where the lens will do its job for us and we have our answer. If not too far, An RB or Bronica GS1; If a real hike a Hasselblad or Mamiya 7II. think like that and you will have a camera that you will like, can use and will not be trading off in 6 months or a year.
Logan

ntenny · Jul 7, 2014

whlogan said:
BronicasRolleisPentaxesMamiyas and all other sort and conditions of man. Decide what means the most to YOU. Image quality should be the top and then correct answer and then Lenses are the route to that.

I'm gonna quibble with that statement, actually. If image quality were unconditionally the top criterion for choosing a camera, we'd all be carrying around 11x14s, right? In practice, the camera that you actually bring along will give you a better image than the one you left at home because you didn't feel like hassling with the RB67 today.

Every camera mentioned in this thread has lenses that are about as good as a person could want. There are people who will go to the wall for the benefits of Zeiss over Mamiya or vice versa, or whatever, but man, a person would have to be a superb photographer for those differences to be a significant limiting factor in their images.

-NT

DannL. · Jul 7, 2014

I'm very pleased with a RZ67, recently acquired. I appreciate the frame ratio that matches 8x10 very closely when enlarging. And mirror-up operation, bellows for close-up, and a rotating back. The additional mass is actually a blessing on breezy days, and when being hand-held. I only learned after the purchase how reasonably priced lenses are for the camera.

DREW WILEY · Jul 7, 2014

Most of the later lenses for just about any of the main camera brands are quite good. I got into the Pentax 6x7 system a long time ago and
stuck with it. Anyway, it's certainly a bargain system at the moment. I really doubt that far more expensive Zeiss lenses would make a visible difference in an actual print. If you need a real boost in image quality or enlargement capacity, simply step up to large format. Otherwise it's all about personal preferences - weight and handling, ergonomics, availability of this n' that, lens selection, price.... blah blah.

sodarum · Jul 7, 2014

Thanks everyone for your suggestions.

I'm very much attracted to the idea of getting a Hassy 500 (or 501,503 etc.). I know it's probably the best choice in terms of mechanical reliability. But I've taken a look at the features of Rollei SL66, and it seems like an interesting camera too, and it seems to be a bit cheaper than the Hasselblads. The macro focus bellows feature on it is attractive. Can it do tilts, or is it just a macro extension?

What are your thoughts on SL66?

Hasselblad and Rollei, it's like choosing between Coke and Pepsi, Cadillac and Lincoln....it's always the TWO big names.

johnha · Jul 7, 2014

When I was looking for a 6x6 SLR to replace my Mamiya 645* (a long time ago) the choice was either a new Bronica SQ or a used 'blad 500. In the end I went Bronica because I couldn't justify the cost of more lenses for the 'blad, but also because I read a lot about 'blads jamming if operated incorrectly (on a used camera that I wasn't familiar with, it was a consideration). The Bronica has an electronic shutter so it needs a battery, but it lasts forever and easy to carry a spare. More recently I've settled on a Pentax 6x7, but I think the Bronica S2 is the coolest looking 6x6 SLR.

You should also consider the costs of the system you might want, whether leaf or focal plane shutters are important and whether interchangeable backs are a help.

* It didn't replace the Mamiya, I still have and use it when I need a more responsive set-up.

Sirius Glass · Jul 7, 2014

Like the Packard motor car advertizement, with Hasselblads "Ask the man that owns one."

sodarum · Jul 7, 2014

Another thing I'd like to ask is, is it recommended to use second hand dealers, or is e-bay good enough? With e-bay you get better images of the goods, and I think, cheaper prices, but are the dedicated dealers more reliable in terms of statements such as "like new" or "great condition"?

Kyle M. · Jul 7, 2014

ebay can be a gamble even with a camera dealer with perfect feedback, I only buy through ebay when I can't find what I want anywhere else, and even then I tend to stick with reputable dealers. KEH camera www.keh.com is where I get alot of my stuff I usually get better prices than ebay, and always cheaper than the few camera shops within driving distance of me. There rating system is great too, keh bargain items tend to be excellant, exc, and exc+ items tend to look like they just came out of the box. I have yet to get burned on ebay and I have got some amazing deals, I got my Mamiya RB67 Pros S with waistlevel finder, 1 120 Pro SD back, 90mm C lens, cap, hood, and strap for $315 shipped last september. But it also came from a retired pro who offered a 30 day money back guarantee.

AgX · Jul 7, 2014

sodarum said:
But I've taken a look at the features of Rollei SL66, and it seems like an interesting camera too, and it seems to be a bit cheaper than the Hasselblads. The macro focus bellows feature on it is attractive. Can it do tilts, or is it just a macro extension?

The bellows assembly is pivoted at the body on a horizontal axis, yielding +/- 8° tilt.

The bellowsv has to be extended somewhat to give the lens space for that tilting, but one would not use tilt at the infinity setting anyway.

john_s · Jul 7, 2014

sodarum said:
.....What are your thoughts on SL66?
......

I use one* of these and I like it very much. The lenses are good, most if not all have Hasselblad equivalents of the same era (so they are a generation behind later Hasselblad ones). The focal plane shutter means you can put other lenses on it with an adapter (I have an Imagon). It also means it's less flexible with flash unless you have one of the two lenses with leaf shutters in them.

It is bigger than a Hasselblad and not quite as easy to use hand-held. It sounds really lovely (you can tell I'm biased!) whereas I find the sound of the Hasselblad harsh.

It does enough tilt to get near-far landscapes and table-top photography plane of focus effects (and also some intriguing portraits with very out of focus foregrounds and backgrounds, but I haven't tried that). The macro facility is super. I have done lots of copy work with the lens reversed and can attest to its performance (no extra accessories needed).

The asking prices of them is often high, but they're not exactly rushing out the door. There are quite a lot of them in Germany where I think they were used by the police and other agencies. Some lenses are expensive but they hang around on ebay for ages.

*Here in Australia there is no one to repair them, so I picked up a couple of bodies as spares (they are not expensive here) but I haven't needed them. I do use them all so as to give them some exercise. There are later models with meters but I would stick to using a hand held meter. Like a lot of European companies that were superb at mechanical engineering they found the introduction of electronics challenging, including Rollei. Once a camera is on a tripod a hand held meter is easier anyway.

elekm · Jul 7, 2014

There is a handgrip/bracket for the Rolleiflex SL66 that really transforms the camera and makes it easier to handhold.

Still, it's a substantial camera, but the bracket makes it much easier to shoot handheld.

Others also have mentioned the Pentacon/Praktica 66 cameras.

Also, take a look at the Kowa camera.

I don't know enough about the durability of the Kowa cameras to offer an opinion.

I will say that nearly any medium format camera has its ardent fans and critics. And of course each has its benefits and drawbacks.

Mike Evangelist · Jul 7, 2014

sodarum said:
What are your thoughts on SL66?

I've used SL66s off and on since 1977. They are great cameras, and can be found for quite reasonable prices these days. If you have a little patience you can probably pick up a nice body & lens for around $800. (more if you want a SL66e or SL66se which have built-in meters). Just be sure the seller will take it back if it doesn't check out.

PS
A few things to watch in used SL66s:
- make sure the film magazine and the film insert have matching serial numbers. If they don't, you're very likely to have bad frame spacing.
- Check the bellows for any light leaks (replacement after-market bellows are available for under $100, so that's not too big a deal.)
- Run one or more test rolls to verify shutter speeds and frame spacing.

john_s · Jul 8, 2014

Mike Evangelist said:
......
- Run one or more test rolls to verify shutter speeds and frame spacing.

The rather large focal plane shutter can produce uneven exposure at the highest shutter speeds. Mine is poor at 1/1000 and not great at 1/500 but I don't use these speeds and haven't bothered to get it fixed. I used to be fastidious about perfection but these days if it works well enough it's good enough.

Bronica John · Jul 8, 2014

You seem to have plenty of replies, but I will also throw in my $.02 You mentioned a Mamiya M645. If the 645 format interests you, you may want to check out the Bronica ETR series. I have both a Mamiya M645 and Bronica ETRSi. The images from both seem comparable to me. However, I was sold on the ETRSi because of its swappable film back, which the Mamiya M645 does not have. I can shoot b&W and color or different film speeds on the same outing. The ETRSi also has a leaf shutter compared to the M645 curtain shutter. That does not have a huge affect on me since I do not do much flash photography. But if you do use flash, you have flash sync all the way up to 1/500 where I believe the flash sync on the M645 is 1/60. I also have the AE-II metered prism and speed grip, so it handles like a big 35mm camera. The meter in the AE-II prism seems very accurate to me. I shoot a lot of chrome and use only the AE-II light meter and always get great exposures. I have heard others say there are "battery problems" with the AE-II prism, but I believe that is only if you forget to turn the prism off when done using it. If you do forget to do that, it will indeed drain the battery in the body of the camera. But as long as you turn it off when done, or remove the prism from the body, you will not run into that problem.

older manual SLR's?

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