Old russian camera, worth buying? What price?

[Jaume Tormo]

I've found this camera in a vintage shop in Estonia. Do you think it's worth buying it? The lady wants 120€ which is a lot of money for me. I would buy it only if the camera is something special... Is it?

Thank you very much.

 

[xkaes]

It's a Moskva (Moscow) 5 the last in a series of cameras from 1946 to 1960. What it's worth depends on its cosmetic and mechanical condition. It's basically a copy of the Zeiss Ikonta. Asking prices run from $50 to $500. What it's "worth" is another story.

 

[Dustin McAmera]

The Moskva cameras are copies (but not exact copies) of Ikontas and Super Ikontas:

http://camera-wiki.org/wiki/Moskva (overview of the whole series), and

Moskva-5 - Camera-wiki.org - The free camera encyclopedia

camera-wiki.org

It's a coupled RF for 6x9, which some people would consider special; and it should also do square format if you have the extra mask for that.
I'd want to be confident that the shutter and the RF are working, and the lens is in good condition, for that sort of money.
That lens is an Industar-24; Industars are all Tessar types.

 

[Jaume Tormo]

Thank you very much. Very useful answers.

Jaume

 

[mshchem]

6x9 is a wonderful format. Not sure about this model.

 

[Philippe-Georges]

If you can, check the bellows first.

 

[btaylor]

I had one when I was going through my FSU camera phase. Mine took very sharp pictures and I’ve always had a soft spot for the 6x9 format- nice big neg! Unfortunately I did not care for the handling and sold it, no regrets there.

 

[guangong]

You should consider a 6x9 camera as a tryout, to find out if this format is for you. Personally, I found the handling of cameras in this format unwieldy, but that’s just me, you may like it. How much money to gamble with is up to you.

 

[Donald Qualls]

I've owned two Moskva 5 examples (regretted trading the first, so bought another a couple years ago). Both have been very good. If the bellows and shutter are good, rangefinder accurately calibrated, and shutter runs correctly, it's a very good camera -- more so if it has the 6x6 format mask with it (there are several versions of these masks, and I'm not certain if they interchange between cameras of different ages). In some ways, it's better than the Super Ikonta C it was originally based on (the Moskva 5 is an upgraded version of the original Moskva 3 that was an exact copy of the Zeiss, made on Zeiss equipment taken as war reparations).

 

[abruzzi]

on ebay the prices of these range for $80 up to about $300 (USD), depending on condition. eBay may not ben the most useful pricing source to compare to local sales, but it suggests the the price is in the ballpark, and if everything works well it may, at 120 eur, but a reasonable deal.

 

[JPD]

In some ways, it's better than the Super Ikonta C it was originally based on (the Moskva 5 is an upgraded version of the original Moskva 3 that was an exact copy of the Zeiss, made on Zeiss equipment taken as war reparations).

I think you are confusing the (Super) Ikonta with the Contax. The (Super) Ikontas were produced in Zeiss Ikon's factory in Stuttgart, far from the Soviet occupation zone. Moskva-2 was the first Soviet copy of the Super Ikonta. The Moskva-3 is a 6,5x9 plate camera. The Soviets also copied other German cameras that weren't in their occupation zone, both before and after the war.

East Germany copied the Ikonta as the Ercona/Exona, but they never added a rangefinder.

 

[itsdoable]

...East Germany copied the Ikonta as the Ercona/Exona, but they never added a rangefinder.

I'd be hesitant calling the Ercona's a copy, since they were made by the original Zeiss company, in the original Zeiss factory with many of the same people who made the Ikontas - it was a continuation of their manufacture after the war. Technically, Zeiss Oberkochen made the copy...

 

[JPD]

I'd be hesitant calling the Ercona's a copy, since they were made by the original Zeiss company, in the original Zeiss factory with many of the same people who made the Ikontas - it was a continuation of their manufacture after the war. Technically, Zeiss Oberkochen made the copy...

The original Zeiss Ikon factory that made the Ikontas was the Contessa Werk in Stuttgart, in the Western zone. The Ikonta range was never made in Dresden or any part of what was to be the Soviet occupation zone. Zeiss Ikon in the Soviet zone, through it's parent company, Carl Zeiss Jena, needed new equipment to develop and manufacture the Ercona, while the plant in Stuttgart had the old equipment and personel. I doubt that many of the Zeiss Ikon employees from the West moved to the dictatorship in the East to build Erconas.

Maybe the Ercona should be called a "reconstructed Ikonta" rather than "copy". The Ercona II is one of my favourite cameras.

Edit: Maybe you were thinking of the optical plants in Jena vs Oberkochen. Zeiss Ikon was an independent company, but part of the Carl Zeiss Foundation.

 

[itsdoable]

The original Zeiss Ikon factory that made the Ikontas was the Contessa Werk in Stuttgart, in the Western zone. The Ikonta range was never made in Dresden or any part of what was to be the Soviet occupation zone. Zeiss Ikon in the Soviet zone, through it's parent company, Carl Zeiss Jena, needed new equipment to develop and manufacture the Ercona, while the plant in Stuttgart had the old equipment and personel. I doubt that many of the Zeiss Ikon employees from the West moved to the dictatorship in the East to build Erconas.

Maybe the Ercona should be called a "reconstructed Ikonta" rather than "copy". The Ercona II is one of my favourite cameras.

Edit: Maybe you were thinking of the optical plants in Jena vs Oberkochen. Zeiss Ikon was an independent company, but part of the Carl Zeiss Foundation.

Ah yes, that is correct. Maybe a fork in the camera design is a better description (as happens with software). The Moskva was a copy though.
Zeiss Ikon didn't officially move their head office from Dresden to Stuttgart till 1948.

 

[1957ExaktaVarexIIa]

For those who are interested: there is a very good website about the Ercona and its history. Sorry that it's in German.

 

[Sirius Glass]

The camera is only worth that hard earned money, if it meets your needs and fits in your hands well. One should avoid using a camera that in inconvenient to handle.

 

[JPD]

Ah yes, that is correct. Maybe a fork in the camera design is a better description (as happens with software). The Moskva was a copy though.
Zeiss Ikon didn't officially move their head office from Dresden to Stuttgart till 1948.

Yes, fork works. And thankfully they chose to keep the sturdy design instead of simplifying it. And today it's easier to find an Ercona with Tessar than an Ikonta for a reasonable price. The Moskvas are like the other hit-or-miss Soviet cameras, excellent when they work but like crude gift-shop shabby chic coffee grinders for decoration only when they don't.

For those who are interested: there is a very good website about the Ercona and its history. Sorry that it's in German.

The Zeiss letter from October 1945 is interesting, showing that the Contax II, Ikonta 6x9 (that became the Ercona) and small sound projectors were prioritised.

 

[neilt3]

I bought one of these cameras maybe five years ago , including the 6x6 mask for around £100 .
Works perfect , takes nice pictures , sharp with good contrast .
£100 then is more than $100 now I guess with how prices of everything have shot up this last few years on everything.

As mine is a good copy , I felt it was well worth it as I enjoy using it .
If that's a good copy and you like how it handles and feels it's worth $100 , then buy it .
If it's faulty or you don't like how it handles , then don't buy it .

It's not my most used camera as I'm typically shooting 6x45 or 6x6 on TLRs or SLRs .
But I've a few MF folders and box cameras I use from time to time .

 

[SMD]

I've found this camera in a vintage shop in Estonia. Do you think it's worth buying it? The lady wants 120€ which is a lot of money for me.

Look at the thickness of the dust already accumulated on the camera and depending on that offer a lower price.

I suspect the situation is the same as I experience it here locally and perhaps in all ex-communist countries. The antique shop is in fact a junkstore and they asking for older cameras unrealistically high prices. (Like for soviet cameras with million of copies the price of the Gioconda.) The shop owner heard something about how film cameras are again worth money and illogically think they could ask from their easternblock buyers above western prices. (But they don't apply this thinking when they buy.) Fortunately they are not totally dumb and after the camera sits for months or years collecting dust on the shelve they realise it cos them space and money if they don't sell it. So even if in the beginning they are asking you a high price, it is worth to negociate.

 

[ant!]

And today it's easier to find an Ercona with Tessar than an Ikonta for a reasonable price.

I guess it depends where you look. Yes, Erconas are cheap, but at least in Germany many ikontas and other folders can be found for not much more. I paid around 80€ for a 6x6 Super Ikonta about a year ago, which works like new. And I saw similar deals later. And of course the non-rangefinder models are cheaper.
Here in Canada, I see ads for basic Zeiss Nettars for above $300, so more then twice what I paid for the Super Ikonta.

About the story of the Ikonta: I read somewhere the lenses came from Jena, the shutter from Munich, these were combined in Dresden, and shipped to Stuttgart for final assembly of the cameras. Zeiss Ikon was a highly integrated company.

 

[JPD]

I guess it depends where you look. Yes, Erconas are cheap, but at least in Germany many ikontas and other folders can be found for not much more. I paid around 80€ for a 6x6 Super Ikonta about a year ago, which works like new. And I saw similar deals later. And of course the non-rangefinder models are cheaper.
Here in Canada, I see ads for basic Zeiss Nettars for above $300, so more then twice what I paid for the Super Ikonta.

About the story of the Ikonta: I read somewhere the lenses came from Jena, the shutter from Munich, these were combined in Dresden, and shipped to Stuttgart for final assembly of the cameras. Zeiss Ikon was a highly integrated company.

And the Gauthier shutters from Calmbach, and the Novar lenses from various manufacturers.

Yes, you can find good deals sometimes. I got a mint 1939 Rolleiflex Automat for €60. It's like it just left the factory.

 

[Donald Qualls]

Look at the thickness of the dust already accumulated on the camera and depending on that offer a lower price.

Also, if it hasn't got the 6x6 mask, it's worth a bit less. Open it up, hold it up to the light with the bellows extended, and look for obvious light leaks (though the Moskva 5 isn't really prone to these; whatever they used for the bellows covering seems pretty durable). Make sure the RF at least moves with the lens focus (it's hard to check exact calibration without shooting a roll, but if it move right, chances are it's good). Check that the lens is clear of fungus and the shutter works and is close to correct on the slow speeds (don't try the self-timer, though, they're hazardous even if the camera is otherwise fine).

To me, $120 (which is a bit less than 120 Euro) seems a reasonable price in today's market for a Moskva 5 in good shape.

 

[Marcelo Paniagua]

Agree on the $120 if it is on good shape (no problems with lens, no light leaks, working rangefinder, straight/stable struts, etc.) Moskva 5 is a fine camera, capable of producing great images. If you need the negative size, one of the best and smallest options.

Also, although it may look bulky, it is quite comfortable for hiking and other outdoors activities. Quite light.

I think it is one of the best cameras produced by the soviets, clone or not, IMHO

 

[loccdor]

See if there is a return policy. One problem with some folders is that they can get out of alignment, resulting in pictures that are in focus on one side but not the other. You may not be able to notice that without trying it.

 

[Donald Qualls]

One problem with some folders is that they can get out of alignment, resulting in pictures that are in focus on one side but not the other. You may not be able to notice that without trying it.

Truth.

A trial period long enough to shoot and process at least one roll (use the widest aperture practical, to show up focus errors) with return/refund ability would be ideal, but a secondhand dealer likely doesn't have any such thing.

That said, a camera that's in good cosmetic condition with an accurate shutter is somewhat less likely to have this kind of damage...