Old Ilford/AGFA colour emulsion formulas

[BurntOutElectronics]

g’day everyone
I hope I’ve put this in the right section.
I was wondering if the formulas to ilfords colour film like the old Ilford Color ‘d’ or ilfocolor were ever published? I can’t imagine why not as they haven’t been made in 50 odd years.
and if not what about AGFA’s old in house colour film like Agfacolor?
If none of that is there any black and white formulas published from these company’s? I’ve been interested in learning about early colour film and how it eventually evolved to the c-41 and e-6 process
Thanks

 

[Ian Grant]

I preferred the Agfacolor colours to Kodacolor when I started in the late 1960's, I never used any Ilford colour films they had gone by then, but there were Fuji, GAF/Amsco and Ferrania films as well. The firts films I really liked were E4 Fujichrome and I remain a Fuji convert still.

The formulae for Ilford's colour films were never published in fact a Monopolies Commission looked into Ilford's processing which was all in-house and said they need to open up processing to allow third party labs to process their films. This was a factor in Ilford ceasing colour film manufacture. Kodak had been hit in the US in a similar way over their monopoly with Kodachrome processing.

Ilford have never published emulsion formulae they had been quite advanced in their research before WWII but were forced to stop all colour R&D by the Air Ministry during WWII so were technically too far behind competitors by the time they launched their colour films.

Ian

 

[BurntOutElectronics]

G’day Ian
Interesting to hear you preferred Agfacolor over kodacolor suggesting Agfa managed to keep up after ww2 in the world of colour film development. It’s disappointing to hear Ilford never released any of their colour processes. I’m tempted to send them a email (not that I expect a response) and see if they would ever do such a thing for historical value as they clearly don’t have any interest in going back to colour development.
Lance

 

[railwayman3]

The broad history of colour films and the different principles of the various products and systems are quite generally published, and substitute processing formulae were published in the BJP Almanac books from the time. As Ian suggests, the detailed formulae for emulsions would be unlikely to be published, and would no doubt be "trade secrets" and/or covered by patents.

I don't think that one could decide on a definitive "better colour film" from that time......some manufacturers made more than one (e.g. Kodachrome and Ektachrome). formulae would be "tweaked" from time-to-time as R&D progressed, every user had their personal preferences as to such as colour and contrast rendering, and there could be variations in processing, particularly in the printing of colour negatives.

 

[BurntOutElectronics]

Hi railman
I fully understand that it’s a stretch that film formulaes would have been released but it was worth asking!
I’m 16 and have been developing my own film (b&w, c-41, e-6) for a few years in my grandads old darkroom and always wondered if a formula had ever been released to the general public for some of these films because I want to get a proper grasp how colour couplers are made and work to form images.
If only there was some sort of open source colour film development!
Lance

 

[AgX]

Interesting to hear you preferred Agfacolor over kodacolor suggesting Agfa managed to keep up after ww2 in the world of colour film development.

Keep in mind that after the war there were 2 Agfas.
It was at the original film plant in the soviet zone that Agfacolor films were made after the war. The plant in the british zone was not able to make any films, let alone colour materials. For years the newly spun-off Agfa in the West even had to buy colour films from the plant in the East. Only gradually a colour film production could be established and cranked up to sufficient numbers in the West. From then on two Agfacolor ranges exited, East and West.

Ian, due to his young age of course, was referring to Agfacolor from the West, as by then a setting of the trade-name issue had been made and the eastern films were called Orwocolor.

One of the marketing arguments of Agfa in later years was to make films with natural colour rendition, and with this they had been very successful at professionals too. The problem of Agfa, and any competitor, in those years was the sheer size of Kodak, to which none of them could cope.

 

[Ian Grant]

Ilford do have colour film/paper Patents, that's the closest you'll get to published formulae from any company. I remember reading some just before going on a factory tour a few years ago and meeting the applicant there

Colour films really improved dramatically with the change to C41 and then E6, the differences in colour fidelity, sharpness etc,were a huge advance and the gap between manufacturers like Fuji, Kodak, 3M (Ferrania) and Agfa closed.

Ian

 

[pwitkop]

Hi railman
I fully understand that it’s a stretch that film formulaes would have been released but it was worth asking!
I’m 16 and have been developing my own film (b&w, c-41, e-6) for a few years in my grandads old darkroom and always wondered if a formula had ever been released to the general public for some of these films because I want to get a proper grasp how colour couplers are made and work to form images.
If only there was some sort of open source colour film development!
Lance

Well, there are published formulas for the color chemistry and the basics of the dye chemistry I'm sure is published, not that I understand it well (art major, not chemistry). Infact there's folks here here who understand it quite well and hopefully they'll have a chance to chime in.

 

[foc]

I know I have some Agfa CNS and AP41 (colour neg & transparency) processing chemical formulae, in some old BPJ that I have somewhere.
Here is a link to some interesting articles on early Agfa.
https://www.photomemorabilia.co.uk/Colour_Darkroom/Early_Agfa.html

I personally liked the Agfa transparency film CT18 back in the 1970's which was processed in Agfa's own process AP41.
Of course Agfa changed to C41 for colour negatives and E6 for transparencies in the late 1970's and early 1980's

 

[AgX]

Agfa ware one of the last worldwide to change to the Kodak processing standards...

 

[BurntOutElectronics]

Hi foc
I did find and read through the photo memorabilia website a few days ago and was a really good insight on how we got to the modern processes we have now.
It would be great if you could post that processing formula.
It would be great if someone dug up the formula to something like Verichrome or panatomic-x (although I know realise none of these formulas have ever been released to the public) and be able to compare it to modern emulsions. I’d imagine the biggest difference is the silver content.

 

[Lachlan Young]

I’d imagine the biggest difference is the silver content.

Not necessarily. The utilisation of the silver is vastly higher in modern emulsions as is the sophistication of grain formation and growth. 'Silver rich' is marketing twaddle - only reversal films need a high coated weight of silver. There are quite extensive threads in the emulsion making section that cover this in detail.

 

[Bikerider]

Ilford do have colour film/paper Patents, that's the closest you'll get to published formulae from any company. I remember reading some just before going on a factory tour a few years ago and meeting the applicant there
Ian

I can vouch for the quote about Ilford not releasing any chemical formulas. Ilford made an absolutely superb acutance developer called Hyfin, but it was discontinued sometime in the late '60's early 70's. I wrote to them asking if they would release the formula and at first they denied it ever existed. I then directed them to a site on the web where there was a picture of the chemical with their name on the box (It only came as a powder). They replied that they never release any technical information that may be commercially sensitive!

Hell's teeth, it is only a B&W developer! (But an exceedingly good one)

 

[Bikerider]

I really liked the Agfa film tones and results, however it was in comparison to all Kodak emulsions quite grainy and no where as near as sharp. It also had a strong tendency to fade very badly and quite quickly too, with a strong magenta cast becoming prominent irrespective of the conditions it was kept in. After the event of E^ emulsions becoming available the balance was restored, but of course this was after the time span covered. in the poll. So for me it had to go to Kodak.

 

[Ian Grant]

I can vouch for the quote about Ilford not releasing any chemical formulas. Ilford made an absolutely superb acutance developer called Hyfin, but it was discontinued sometime in the late '60's early 70's. I wrote to them asking if they would release the formula and at first they denied it ever existed. I then directed them to a site on the web where there was a picture of the chemical with their name on the box (It only came as a powder). They replied that they never release any technical information that may be commercially sensitive!

Hell's teeth, it is only a B&W developer! (But an exceedingly good one)

I posted a picture of the Developer sachets and outer packet here on this forum (when it was APUG) around 15 or 16 years ago, I have 5 boxes of Hyfin each with 5 sachets to make 600ml developer but the developing agents have oxidised. LFA Mason indicates the probable formula in Photographic Processing Chemistry, it contained Metol and Glycin.

It's worth pointing out that many of the Ilford staff weren't there when Hyfin was dropped, I know Simon Galley wasn't as he hadn't joined Ilford when I made some visits to the factory in the early 1980's.

Ilford are quite devious in the way they publish some formulae in Patents, I found Pq Uninversal in one but the weights of the un-named made little sense, then in a spreadsheet I realised the ratios of Hyroquinone, Metol, and Sulphite were the same as ID-62 and that they had added Potassium Carbonate and Sodium Hydroxide in place of Sodium Carbonate which matches the PQ Universal MSDS sheet. You have to do this with concentrated liquid developers for solubility, Agfa (& successors) used a higher amount of Hydroxide this reduces costs slightly.

Ian

 

[BurntOutElectronics]

Ian
Do you have a archive of all the formulas for everything you’ve found? It sure would be great to take a look at them if you could upload some as it sure seems you’ve spent a lot of time trying to find various formulas over time that most wouldn’t have found, even if it might not be complete

 

[Ian Grant]

Ian
Do you have a archive of all the formulas for everything you’ve found? It sure would be great to take a look at them if you could upload some as it sure seems you’ve spent a lot of time trying to find various formulas over time that most wouldn’t have found, even if it might not be complete

Most of the relevant information is here or on my website. I mix my developers to the commercial strengths

Ian

 

[Lachlan Young]

Ilford are quite devious in the way they publish some formulae in Patents, I found Pq Uninversal in one

I found something similar for Multigrade developer too, though I can't immediately recall the exact patent number.

 

[Ian Grant]

I found something similar for Multigrade developer too, though I can't immediately recall the exact patent number.

My memory reminds me that with Ilford PQ Universal developer there could be colour shifts depending on Contrast grade (filtration), this must have been due to the differing exposures of the two (later three), essentially the identical emulsion each with differing colour sensitivity.

So another tweaking of restrainers to overcome the issue.

Ian

 

[foc]

Hi foc
I did find and read through the photo memorabilia website a few days ago and was a really good insight on how we got to the modern processes we have now.
It would be great if you could post that processing formula.
It would be great if someone dug up the formula to something like Verichrome or panatomic-x (although I know realise none of these formulas have ever been released to the public) and be able to compare it to modern emulsions. I’d imagine the biggest difference is the silver content.

I found some details that might be of interest in the BJP 1981.

This relates to the Agfa CNS colour negative film process.




This relates to Agfachrome AP41 process for colour transparencies.



I came across these in my notes, it may be of interest

 

[Lachlan Young]

My memory reminds me that with Ilford PQ Universal developer there could be colour shifts depending on Contrast grade (filtration), this must have been due to the differing exposures of the two (later three), essentially the identical emulsion each with differing colour sensitivity.

So another tweaking of restrainers to overcome the issue.

Ian

That essentially tallies with what I recall it was described to do in the patent - I also recall it had some PMT and BZT in it as restrainers, but I could be wrong.

 

[mohmad khatab]

G’day Ian
Interesting to hear you preferred Agfacolor over kodacolor suggesting Agfa managed to keep up after ww2 in the world of colour film development. It’s disappointing to hear Ilford never released any of their colour processes. I’m tempted to send them a email (not that I expect a response) and see if they would ever do such a thing for historical value as they clearly don’t have any interest in going back to colour development.
Lance

I did just like you ,,,
I sent them a message, begged them, and asked them to think of a way to make and produce a color film. I even told them that they do not have to reinvent the wheel. There are many patents that became public in the end of the legal period and they can benefit from that. Old formats with some updates to them such as (ORWO) and (svema) and others,
- An employee from the Marketing Department answered me and told me that they were very interested in my message and that it was transferred to the technical department to study it, so I told him, I felt that this pre-fabricated response did not make me feel at all comfortable, and he answered and said: The Ilford Foundation realizes the growth of the imaging market The accelerating analog and realizes how analog amateurs need the color film, and it is the most widespread analog item, and the Ilford administration understands all of this and wants to satisfy the passion of amateurs and provide everything they need.
Of course these answers are rubbery (in the known British way) - We do not know what is going on in the head of these mysterious Britons.

 

[BurntOutElectronics]

I did just like you ,,,
I sent them a message, begged them, and asked them to think of a way to make and produce a color film. I even told them that they do not have to reinvent the wheel. There are many patents that became public in the end of the legal period and they can benefit from that. Old formats with some updates to them such as (ORWO) and (svema) and others,
- An employee from the Marketing Department answered me and told me that they were very interested in my message and that it was transferred to the technical department to study it, so I told him, I felt that this pre-fabricated response did not make me feel at all comfortable, and he answered and said: The Ilford Foundation realizes the growth of the imaging market The accelerating analog and realizes how analog amateurs need the color film, and it is the most widespread analog item, and the Ilford administration understands all of this and wants to satisfy the passion of amateurs and provide everything they need.
Of course these answers are rubbery (in the known British way) - We do not know what is going on in the head of these mysterious Britons.

Hi mohmad, I'd imagine they have a lot of pre made response emails as they probably get quite a few emails thus it's hard to tell if your talking to a genuine response or not. It disappoints me that ilford won't release 60 year old colour formulas not even for historical relevance as there is no way such old and imperfect emulsions and processes would be remotely profitable these days with modern processes available like e-6 and c-41. I found a old exposure book the other day and it said the ISO of Ilford's colour 'd' emulsion was 10 yes 10 ISO! Granted so was Kodachrome at the time and kodacolor was still only 32 ISO but it puts it into perspective of how far film has come. Lance

 

[mohmad khatab]

Hi mohmad, I'd imagine they have a lot of pre made response emails as they probably get quite a few emails thus it's hard to tell if your talking to a genuine response or not. It disappoints me that ilford won't release 60 year old colour formulas not even for historical relevance as there is no way such old and imperfect emulsions and processes would be remotely profitable these days with modern processes available like e-6 and c-41. I found a old exposure book the other day and it said the ISO of Ilford's colour 'd' emulsion was 10 yes 10 ISO! Granted so was Kodachrome at the time and kodacolor was still only 32 ISO but it puts it into perspective of how far film has come. Lance

The Ilford Foundation is not a great institution as I thought.
It is a mangled, self-divided enterprise, part of which has been sold to a Japanese investor, and they are trying to keep the rest of it alive.
Really, it is a very vague institution that does not deserve respect at all.
- Historically, if we make a comparison between them and the Agfa Foundation ,, the difference is different ,, Agfa has been divided and colonized and has been subject to the plunder of its patents and yet it remains a pioneer and remains the act and not the reaction, while Ilford She was blessed with a fulfilling life and lived under a soft, calm and stable capitalism, and despite that she did not do anything of scientific value ,,, even her reflex operation is very confusing and trivial and most of the times unsuccessful, compared to the process (Agfa Scala 200x)
- I also sent an email to Filmotec (the legitimate heir of the brand ORWO) still living alive and making black and white products since 1998 ,, I sent them to them in this regard ,, but I received a response from their manager that suggests that he is very frustrated and not Confident in the extent of the market's need for color analog imaging products, I said to him: My dear, you are not following the analog photographic movement at the world level. You live in a dark, soundproof, made glass, so you do not see or hear what is happening outside.
- I think this man deserves to try with him ,,, I am thinking about organizing a global campaign to address this frustrated man who suffers frustration ,, I suggest that we call it (we all love ORWO) ,,, the scientific prescriptions for (ORWO) company are available in the safes of that company, and they have Legal right, and has technical and laboratory capabilities, necessary equipment, devices, machinery, etc.
Let's do something, my friend.
I am Muhammad Khattab from Egypt

 

[Lachlan Young]

I did just like you ,,,
I sent them a message, begged them, and asked them to think of a way to make and produce a color film. I even told them that they do not have to reinvent the wheel. There are many patents that became public in the end of the legal period and they can benefit from that. Old formats with some updates to them such as (ORWO) and (svema) and others,
- An employee from the Marketing Department answered me and told me that they were very interested in my message and that it was transferred to the technical department to study it, so I told him, I felt that this pre-fabricated response did not make me feel at all comfortable, and he answered and said: The Ilford Foundation realizes the growth of the imaging market The accelerating analog and realizes how analog amateurs need the color film, and it is the most widespread analog item, and the Ilford administration understands all of this and wants to satisfy the passion of amateurs and provide everything they need.
Of course these answers are rubbery (in the known British way) - We do not know what is going on in the head of these mysterious Britons.

How many million pounds/ dollars/ euros are you willing to invest in the necessary R&D? You can demand all the products you want, but unless the market and investment are there, it's not going to happen.
Consider too that there were severe technical issues with multilayer slide/ waterfall coating of Fischer coupler technology - almost certainly the reason why Agfa, Fuji, Ferrania/ 3M etc adopted Kodacolor coupler technology in the 1970's. This has been explained in considerable detail on here over the years.

Hi mohmad, I'd imagine they have a lot of pre made response emails as they probably get quite a few emails thus it's hard to tell if your talking to a genuine response or not. It disappoints me that ilford won't release 60 year old colour formulas not even for historical relevance as there is no way such old and imperfect emulsions and processes would be remotely profitable these days with modern processes available like e-6 and c-41. I found a old exposure book the other day and it said the ISO of Ilford's colour 'd' emulsion was 10 yes 10 ISO! Granted so was Kodachrome at the time and kodacolor was still only 32 ISO but it puts it into perspective of how far film has come. Lance

A small amount of searching on here would find a description of how to build a Kodachrome-alike film, why Agfa/ Fischer couplers don't work well with modern coating techniques & that you are going to need a lot more knowledge and ability to get a good multiple layer coating than you probably think.