Old Forte paper sheets stuck into a block

bence8810 · Dec 4, 2015

Dear all,

It's my first thread here (I think) - thanks for having me. I've been active on RFF and just realized this is the place for analogue conversations so here I go with my question.

I got some old Forte paper through my dad and just tried this box of 5x7 Forte Bromofort BN0 from the mid 80's.
To my surprise when I opened the box - all the sheets were stuck together into a block. Being curious I peeled one off and printed away.
First of all the paper shows some loss of contrast and lost a stop of speed too but otherwise looking good. I'd definitely want to use it.

The problem is how do I get it all separated? The trick - althought I am sure I don't have to say it out loud - I need to do all this in the dark.

You see that my sample print below shows some strong yellowing in one place - I assume some compound from the other sheet below it got stuck or something similar.

Any ideas?
I have about 500 sheets of this so would be great to rescue it somehow.

Thanks,
Ben

p.s. I can't post the link until I have 15 posts. I'll do my best!
Meanwhile here is the link with some missing bits:

www DOT celifornia DOT com SLASH documents SLASH uploadedimages SLASH Lorant_Forte_BN0_Yellowed DOT JPG

Sirius Glass · Dec 4, 2015

Welcome to APUG

bence8810 · Dec 4, 2015

Thank you!

gorbas · Dec 4, 2015

Hi bence8810, welcome to APUG!
Forte Bromofort BN was my favourite paper, NB0 was single weight, normal gradation, BN4 was double weight, glossy. It was fairly fast paper, maybe full grade more contrasty than "normal" EFKE Emaks #2. Generally speaking, Forte Bromofort was long lasting paper. I printed on +20 years old 50x60cm somebody give me back in the day, with no problem. From what you said about being in the "block", it doesn't sound good. Being single weight you have good chance in damaging emulsion. Try slowly in the dark some card tricks??? Never had a chance to experience that phenomena. Generally single weight Forte in 18x24cm size after opening was always well curved on all 4 corners, looking more like bowl, but in easel, under weight it was flat.
Did it come packaged with red wrapper after black one in the box?
Good luck!
PS maybe it's time to finally use all my remaining Forte Bromofort BSP0 and BH0 I have left from my last visit to Forte factory shop in downtown Budapest in 1993?

bence8810 · Dec 4, 2015

Hello Gorbas - thanks for welcoming me.

My dad also bought the paper from people that lived close to the factory in Vac - some 30 or so KMs outside of Budapest.
I really like Forte papers so I am slowly stocking up. I have about a 1000 sheets of BSP4 and about 600 BN4 and those work great and aren't stuck.
They are also from the newest batch from the 90's and are boxed in a white package.
The ones I am mentioning here are the older kinds, Yellow box and wrapped into Black and Red paper indeed.
The double weight paper from the Yellow boxes work really well but the single weight all somehow got glued together. They still work remarkably well though!

I just want to see if there was any solution to have them separated. Right now I am pealing them one at a time and it does damage the emulsion which you can see if you follow my link above and replacing the DOT's to .'s etc etc. I can't post a straight link as I am still under 15 posts. Once I reached 15 I'll replace the link.

Thanks,
Ben

Wayne · Dec 4, 2015

Maybe steam (put them in the bathroom and run the shower?) or storing them in a humid environment for a few days will loosen them...that's probably what stuck them together but it might also help get them apart. But I have no idea if it will actually work, or even make it worse. Just wild ass guesses

bence8810 · Dec 4, 2015

Thanks Wayne - that's an idea. I could take two sheets that are stuck and try this on in daylight.

Problem will be when I find a solution how do I dry and repack the paper? I need it all in the dark and my darkroom isn't exactly big. It's not even a darkroom just a room that can be made dark.

gorbas · Dec 4, 2015

You are welcome Ben!
If you are in "old" Forte papers, I really recommend making their own FD-103 print developer, recipe is supplied with each box of old "yellow" Forte. It worked way softer& nicer than other paper developers I used back then, mostly ORWO B104 and N120. Hard to tell how they all will compare to Dektol? Maybe I should just compare their formulas (FD103 -Dektol), haven't seen ever those two ORWO recipes published?
I did use very little of Forte variable contrast papers in late '90s.
You are far away from Hungary, congratulation on your effort to use those beautiful papers!
Does anybody know why did they changed Forte logo? From old logo on Yellow, then to white and then new logo on white or gold? A 2 weeks ago I had that conversation with Marco Buonocore while visiting his darkroom. Old logo on yellow was absolutely beautiful

bence8810 · Dec 4, 2015

I am Hungarian and my whole family lives there so whenever I visit I have a chance to carry some back. The trick is it all need to be hand carried to work around the checked luggage scanners and I need to make it seem like a piece of cake when I lift my 30kg hand carry to the overhead bin
It's all good though, the paper is fantastic.
I'd paste here what I have but need a few more posts before that can happen.

I use exclusively the FD-103 or whatever it's called, I mix it by hand in 500ml batches and reuse it for 3 sessions.
I develop my negatives in Rodinal to give them higher contrast so I can print the way I like which is grade 3-3,5 usually on VC paper and normal negatives.

I love the old logo too - have a Tshirt with it on and so does my 5yo boy .

What a shame they let forte go belly up. Too bad their film was crap, it could have seen more profitable for investors and they might have let them continue.

Ben

Gerald C Koch · Dec 4, 2015

You might try using a dim green safelight such as a Kodak Brownie safelight with the green cup. The human eye is most sensitive to green light while the paper is not. Keep the emulsion side away from the light. Once you eyes become accommodated this may provide just enough illumination for you to see what you are doing. Grasp the block at opposite ends and twist slightly which should break the sheets apart.

bence8810 · Dec 4, 2015

Good idea on the green light. I don't have anything but read so I could look for a filter that's green.

Wonder how they got all stuck. I'll try again in an hour or so to see what I could do. Will also open a few other boxes to see if they are also stuck.

Ben

bence8810 · Dec 4, 2015

Just took another look and I found two boxes (200sheets) that don't have this condition. Very interesting considering that all came from the same owner and are seemingly from the same batch.

Tried taking the stuck batch into sheets but it's very slow and every single one of them gets damaged. I guess I'll just use them as test sheets for the ones that actually work.
If there are any other thoughts please let me know.

Thanks,
Ben

AgX · Dec 4, 2015

I would peel off one sheet, soak it in water and then hot-press it. If the characterictics will not worsen due to that,I would soak the whole block to get the sheets divided.-

Maybe though I'm overlooking something, never having done this.

bence8810 · Dec 4, 2015

Good idea - thought of that too. I'll try with one sheet. The only problem is I can't put the wet paper away until its dried so I'll need to be in the dark for an hour or so without even the safe light. Will be quite interesting.

What would be even more interesting if it worked what am I going to do in my room with 100 wet sheets of paper in pitch dark

Ben

AgX · Dec 4, 2015

bence8810 said:
The only problem is I can't put the wet paper away until its dried so I'll need to be in the dark for an hour or so without even the safe light.

Don't be afraid in the dark.
That is why I thought of combining soaking the whole block with heat drying. To safe time in the dark and hassle on flat drying hundred sheets or so.

bence8810 · Dec 4, 2015

That's a great idea thanks!

bence8810 · Dec 4, 2015

That's an excellent tip and I just have the dryer for the job. An 11x14 double sided dryer with cloth covering. I'll try with one sheet today and see. Maybe cut in half and soak and dry only half of it to see the difference if any.

Truzi · Dec 4, 2015

You could consider it a smaller sized paper. If you are able to tell where the damaged part is before you expose it, you could print with that in mind (cropping, scaling down, etc.), and cut the damage off the finished print.

bence8810 · Dec 4, 2015

The paper is 5x7 so not much cropping possible unfortunately.

gorbas · Dec 4, 2015

Hi Ben, in this case being Hungarian definitively helps! And I know how it feels when you have to carry full box of paper thru borders, trains, plains, etc.
Good call on FD103! All depends how big your printing seasons are. Are you using condenser or diffusion enlarger?
But in the same time, Japanese had whole bunch of photo material manufacturers and different papers that newer reach outside world. Did you try some of theirs exotic papers?
I would like to see that Tshirt!
When my son was maybe 8 or 9 years old he asked me to frame for him fronts of EFKE, Forte na Foma boxes. He still likes BW film but it has 0 interest in any darkroom work. He is 20 now.

Is there any published history of Forte in Hungarian that you can translate to English? I remember one Forte publication from around 1977 or so published in Serbo-Croatian I had but I can't find it any more. It had bit of it's history and it's Kodak connection.

bence8810 · Dec 4, 2015

Hello,

That's a nice piece of art right there Would't mind having it on my wall.
I was thinking about having some of these logos printed on stickers - might do one day.
The T-shirt we have is just white with the Forte logo on - would be hard to get the exact yellow T-shirt and then print the logo as it is. Will try though!

As soon as I have 15 posts which should be in a few minutes hopefully I can update this thread with links.
My son (5) is interested so far in Darkroom but he is mainly interested in everything I do. Has like 4-5 film cameras with dummy film inside and can remind - reload etc. Pretty cool.

I will look for the history bit - there was a link that I saw not long ago and will make some effort to translate and start a new thread. It was indeed a Kodak factory between the two wars or perhaps even before the 1st one. Then after WWII everything was taken by the state so Forte was born.

Ben

Patrick Robert James · Dec 4, 2015

I would put the stack on the edge of a table then gently press down on opposing sides. The sheer force might work depending on how badly they are stuck together.

bence8810 · Dec 4, 2015

Good idea Patrick, thanks! I'll try that today.

Ben

bence8810 · Dec 4, 2015

Celebrating my 15th post, I can now post images so here is the thread starter image. Wanted to edit my OP but it seems I can't? Is there a timeout feature after which one can't edit the post anymore?

Anyways here is what a print looks like when I peel one sheet away from the block.

Ben

bence8810 · Dec 5, 2015

And finally the little stash of mine from Forte paper. What you see on the bottom left is what I have 1000s of sheets - didn't put it all on the table.

Problem is I don't have big paper much.
Since you asked about Japanese paper - no I haven't tried the old exotic ones yet but I do currently use Fuji's AM line which is RC paper non gloss. I buy the 110.5cm X 20m roll and cut whatever I need.
It's the cheapest in Japan and still available. The biggest print I've done to this day was 90x90cm, basically a meter by meter sheet of paper wall mounted. Lot's of fun and hassle at the same time as I can't process over 20x24" in my darkroom so I need to take it over to the bathroom after exposure and develop on the ground with sponges. Anyways more on that later.

Old Forte paper sheets stuck into a block

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