offering print service, any advice?

[Berri]

If I was to offer optical colour printing of someone's negative, exposed and processed manually, how much do you think I should charge in percentage of my calculated raw material expense?

 

[Ian Grant]

Your title is a but misleading as you're proposing offering a service rather than selling prints.

Do some on-line research (also photo magazines) and see what competitors charge. Remember that hand printing optically has some disadvantages compared to digital minilabs, lambda. etc where there's a lot more control of contrast, colour balance.

Ian

 

[btaylor]

Is that a trick question? That's far from complete formula since labor would be your biggest cost by a large margin if you're hand making prints. If you want to make money you'll have to factor in labor, capital costs, rent, materials, then come up with profit figure you can live with at a volume you think you can get and handle. Add it up and divide by the number of prints-- that's how much you should charge. If it's a hobby it doesn't matter, just pick a number you like. RA4 materials are so cheap they are almost incidental.

 

[BMbikerider]

Your title is a but misleading as you're proposing offering a service rather than selling prints.

Do some on-line research (also photo magazines) and see what competitors charge. Remember that hand printing optically has some disadvantages compared to digital minilabs, lambda. etc where there's a lot more control of contrast, colour balance.

Ian

I don't think there is any control over contrast, colour paper comes in one contrast only so what you buy is what you are stuck with. I have found that once you get the colour balance correct the contrast is all anyone could wish for. Any increase /decrease can I would have thought made it look false.
What you can do which an automated machine cannot, is to selectively burn in/or dodge small sections to compensate for areas where the negative film cannot cope. This of course is quite limited, due to local changes in colour balance this will create if over-done. Also if you are particularly skilled, small localised colour balance changes can be done by altering the filtration. I stress again this must be small otherwise it can become all to obvious.

I have found after many many years of RA4 printing at home, including quite a few weddings, once the basic colour balance is corrected, so long as the developer is regularly replenished, the changes of colour balance will be minimal, and not difficult to deal with.

I also get the feel the 'Berri' is not looking to take over wholesale developing and printing, but making bespoke hand crafted prints and this is probably a lot easier and certainly not as mind bendingly boring.

As for his main question, about what to charge. He needs to cut his costs as much as possible. All suppliers should be Googled to see what they charge for chemicals and paper. I have found that the larger the quantity bought, the cheaper it becomes. I now only use Kodak Ektacolour developer in the 20 litre pack, likewise the Blix from the same company, also in 20 litre sizes. The stability of both the concentrates and the diluted working chemicals is extremely good.

I now buy my printing paper in rolls. I only use Kodak paper which I find has more stability than Fuji and can be up to 1/3rd of the price of Fuji precut paper. I also find with Kodak paper it is easier to obtain a good colour balance than Fuji. To make this use of a roll of paper feasable, I had a light tight box constructed so the roll of paper (88m x 400mm) can be easily dispensed and cut to requirements.

The what to charge for time and labour? Have a look at what professional photographers and professional labs charge for their large prints and I would think if 'Berri' were to pitch his prices around 2/3rds of an average. Stressing to prospective customers that the work is hand printed and corrected.

I would also give serious thought of getting some sort of indemnity insurance in case things go seriously wrong.

 

[Ian Grant]

I don't think there is any control over contrast, colour paper comes in one contrast only so what you buy is what you are stuck with. I have found that once you get the colour balance correct the contrast is all anyone could wish for. Any increase /decrease can I would have thought made it look false.

There isn't with optical printing except for choice of paper, for example Kodak's case Portra (lower contrast) and Supra (higher contrast and more colour saturation). However there is wide control with Digital minilab or Lambda and similar output.

I remember the owner of my local pro lab showing me how good his first digital minilab was, back around 2003, one woman had replaced all his Durst roll-head printers, quality was higher and costs greatly reduced for the same volume of work.

Ian

 

[Berri]

I don't think there is any control over contrast, colour paper comes in one contrast only so what you buy is what you are stuck with. I have found that once you get the colour balance correct the contrast is all anyone could wish for. Any increase /decrease can I would have thought made it look false.
What you can do which an automated machine cannot, is to selectively burn in/or dodge small sections to compensate for areas where the negative film cannot cope. This of course is quite limited, due to local changes in colour balance this will create if over-done. Also if you are particularly skilled, small localised colour balance changes can be done by altering the filtration. I stress again this must be small otherwise it can become all to obvious.

I have found after many many years of RA4 printing at home, including quite a few weddings, once the basic colour balance is corrected, so long as the developer is regularly replenished, the changes of colour balance will be minimal, and not difficult to deal with.

I also get the feel the 'Berri' is not looking to take over wholesale developing and printing, but making bespoke hand crafted prints and this is probably a lot easier and certainly not as mind bendingly boring.

As for his main question, about what to charge. He needs to cut his costs as much as possible. All suppliers should be Googled to see what they charge for chemicals and paper. I have found that the larger the quantity bought, the cheaper it becomes. I now only use Kodak Ektacolour developer in the 20 litre pack, likewise the Blix from the same company, also in 20 litre sizes. The stability of both the concentrates and the diluted working chemicals is extremely good.

I now buy my printing paper in rolls. I only use Kodak paper which I find has more stability than Fuji and can be up to 1/3rd of the price of Fuji precut paper. I also find with Kodak paper it is easier to obtain a good colour balance than Fuji. To make this use of a roll of paper feasable, I had a light tight box constructed so the roll of paper (88m x 400mm) can be easily dispensed and cut to requirements.

The what to charge for time and labour? Have a look at what professional photographers and professional labs charge for their large prints and I would think if 'Berri' were to pitch his prices around 2/3rds of an average. Stressing to prospective customers that the work is hand printed and corrected.

I would also give serious thought of getting some sort of indemnity insurance in case things go seriously wrong.

Thank you very much!
Yes I'm not trying to compete with minilab with lambda printer, and this wouldn't be my "job" just something to do in my spare time because I like doing it and because I see many people around here where I live that aren't particulary happy with what they get from the lab, while I think my prints are much better. That's one reason why many people don't even bother with colour film anymore.
I already use paper in rolls and my choice is mainly kodak since it is cheaper yet very good. I have never used kodak chems though. I also use a very good colorstar 2000 which saves me a lot of hassle (and paper).
I lookt on the internet and this kind of service is offered by some labs in London at very high prices (in my opinion) and I think that 2/3 of that would be a good price, also because I'm not a professional and I don't have a real lab. Of course I would offer this service to people that understand the value of a hand made print, not just to the general holiday snapshooter. Also I want the price high so that the volume is low; I don't want to print a whole roll of 36 photos 10x15cm! (infact I wouldn't even consider offering any size smaller than 18x24cm) maybe someone would like a big print of a couple of their good ones, that was my idea.

Your title is a but misleading as you're proposing offering a service rather than selling prints.

Do some on-line research (also photo magazines) and see what competitors charge. Remember that hand printing optically has some disadvantages compared to digital minilabs, lambda. etc where there's a lot more control of contrast, colour balance.

Ian

Yes it is misleading, you are right, I'll change it! I don't think I need to intervene on contrast or saturation in my prints, as that is determined by the film used and the paper itself. If someone wants to fiddle with the colours then he could do that in PS and send the file to a lab, this would be extremely cheap, but this is not what I want to offer.

 

[removed account4]

hi berri
how about just going to an "optical" lab and asking what
they charge / print and then deciding from there?
since you are doing this for fun, just charge the same amount
of the lab? and .. double or triple the cost of materials and

 

[M Carter]

Advice? Be a badass printer!

I think a "bespoke" service would get some traction, but stock up on double weight cardboard from eBay and factor in shipping - might need to be a national business to be worthwhile.

Find someone who can make you a good, modern, responsive (IE works on phones and desktop) web site and understands how to write for google search, and register the site with google. I think under-30 shooters could be a good market - those kids are buying up processing and scan services like crazy. Get involved in forums where people are actively shooting color.

I bet all those kids in the Analog thread on Reddit shooting their little hearts out with Portra would take you up on their favorite negs.

Bonus - as long as you're shipping prints (in my scenario) find yourself a drymount press and offer a matted and mounted upgrade - shipping would be the same, and you could stock up on precut matte sizes from AmericanFrame or similar, and find a local vendor for specific crops. Or get a matte cutting table and learn to do it, it's not hard with the right tools.

 

[Berri]

Advice? Be a badass printer!

I think a "bespoke" service would get some traction, but stock up on double weight cardboard from eBay and factor in shipping - might need to be a national business to be worthwhile.

Find someone who can make you a good, modern, responsive (IE works on phones and desktop) web site and understands how to write for google search, and register the site with google. I think under-30 shooters could be a good market - those kids are buying up processing and scan services like crazy. Get involved in forums where people are actively shooting color.

I bet all those kids in the Analog thread on Reddit shooting their little hearts out with Portra would take you up on their favorite negs.

Bonus - as long as you're shipping prints (in my scenario) find yourself a drymount press and offer a matted and mounted upgrade - shipping would be the same, and you could stock up on precut matte sizes from AmericanFrame or similar, and find a local vendor for specific crops. Or get a matte cutting table and learn to do it, it's not hard with the right tools.

Wow! That is a lot to think about thank you! I make my mat boards with 45 degree cut, so yes I would definitely offer that!

 

[Berri]

this is one of my negs printed and mounted in a mat by myself.

 

[M Carter]

Wow! That is a lot to think about thank you! I make my mat boards with 45 degree cut, so yes I would definitely offer that!

Poke around these two threads -
https://www.reddit.com/r/analog/
(And the sticky top thread in there, "ask anything")
https://www.reddit.com/r/Darkroom/

This really seems where analog photography is going - kids buying up old SLRs and MF gear and shooting lots of film. Some do their own B&W developing, a few more do their own C-41. A handful of guys with B&W darkrooms, one or two printing color, but mainly everyone is scanning themselves, or using process & scan labs. So there's a ton of people shooting film, with no means to print it other than sending off a scan. But I imagine a lot of those guys would like the occasional analog print, and I'd market a service like that as "100% analog classic printing" or something.

The main reasons these guys are shooting film seem to be a belief that it looks better than digital (like the kids buying up vinyl records these days), and I think for a lot of young people it's a "differentiator" - "I do this cool retro thing with cool old gear" (again, like the kids buying up vinyl records these days...) But just like any fad-ish thing, there's some real talent bubbling to the top.

This crowd is a big part of the reason we're actually seeing new analog products introduced vs. more stuff being discontinued. Bless their little hearts!

 

[Berri]

Poke around these two threads -
https://www.reddit.com/r/analog/
(And the sticky top thread in there, "ask anything")
https://www.reddit.com/r/Darkroom/

This really seems where analog photography is going - kids buying up old SLRs and MF gear and shooting lots of film. Some do their own B&W developing, a few more do their own C-41. A handful of guys with B&W darkrooms, one or two printing color, but mainly everyone is scanning themselves, or using process & scan labs. So there's a ton of people shooting film, with no means to print it other than sending off a scan. But I imagine a lot of those guys would like the occasional analog print, and I'd market a service like that as "100% analog classic printing" or something.

The main reasons these guys are shooting film seem to be a belief that it looks better than digital (like the kids buying up vinyl records these days), and I think for a lot of young people it's a "differentiator" - "I do this cool retro thing with cool old gear" (again, like the kids buying up vinyl records these days...) But just like any fad-ish thing, there's some real talent bubbling to the top.

This crowd is a big part of the reason we're actually seeing new analog products introduced vs. more stuff being discontinued. Bless their little hearts!

thanks very much man! I really appreciate it! I will have a look at that thread. I must say I am glad young people experiment with film!