Of the several Pyro formulations, which...

[removedacct1]

Photographer's Formulary offers several variations on the Pyro type developer. Each seems to have its own characteristics and virtues. If you were to choose one of the formulas they offer as your first venture into Pyro developers, which would you choose and why? (I'm looking for a developer to use solely for tray processing of 8X10 films - Pancro 400 and HP5/FP4 are what I use)

One thing I want out of my first experience is ease-of-use: I prefer to work with a formula that doesn't require measuring dry chemicals, thus minimizing fuss. If I decide I like the results, I will consider making it from scratch at some future time.

Thanks,
Paul

 

[Bob Carnie]

Hi Paul

I have been very happy for 25plus years with Gordon Hutchings PMK formula and yes I do include the stain, and yes my prints exhibit great range. (many people scorn the stain)

 

[Alan9940]

For many years I've used and been very happy with Pyrocat-HD mixed in glycol for all film formats from 35mm to 8x10. No magic to the glycol mix; it just lasts longer in storage. IMO, Pyrocat-HD would be the preferred choice for tray processing because it's not particularly susceptible to aerial oxidation. Bottom line, though, you couldn't go wrong with either formula.

 

[JWMster]

If by "Pyro type" you include pyrocat and mean a staining developer, I've used Formulary's Pyrocat-HD with HP5 and FP4 in 35mm and had great results, but Bergger doesn't seem to recommend it. In fact, they've suggested to be sure to use a pyrogallo-type instead. Yet there is a French photographer who has used pyrocat-HD with Bergger Panchro successfully, shown very nice results and written about it, and if you care to go down that road (Google it and use Google translate) using the same times for Pyro PMK.. Bergger sells a liquid PMK of their own as does Formulary. And if you have questions and time, I wouldn't hesitate to contact "Bud" at PhotoFormulary, tell him what you're after, your concerns - if any, your needs, and let him make a recommendation. FWIW, I've seen Bergger's BerSpeed developer offered by Freestyle, but not their PMK.

 

[Ian Grant]

I've been using Pyrocat HD for over 10 years now, in trays at 2+2 to 100 for 10x8 sheet film and 1+1 to 100 for 120, 5x4 and the odd 35mm. It'd great with all the films I've used with it Fortepan 200, EFKE P25, Tmax 100/400, Delta 100/400 HP5 and Fomapan 100/200. While I've not tried FP4 yet I'm certain it'll be excellent in Pyrocat as well.

I'd take the Bergger recommendation to just be sales hype to help sell their own developer.

Ian

 

[jacaquarie]

For what it is worth? I use the Berger PMK for my Berger Panchro 400 4x5 works for me. Have taken to 1.5 times the amount suggested.
If I knew what I was doing might try other developers for now have a process that seems to work well. YMMV?
Since this works do not feel inclined to experiment with other variables.

Good luck

 

[Alan9940]

While I've not tried FP4 yet I'm certain it'll be excellent in Pyrocat as well.

I'd take the Bergger recommendation to just be sales hype to help sell their own developer.

Ian

I've used Pyrocat-HD with FP-4+ for both 4x5 and 8x10 sizes, processed using a minimal agitation technique and in Jobo Expert Drums, and I can assure you that it's a wonderful combination! Look up the work of Steve Sherman; I believe he has used nothing but FP-4+ and Pyrocat-HD for something like 10 years.

 

[Patrick Robert James]

As others have already mentioned, your best choices are going to be either PMK or Pyrocat since you want it premixed. PMK lasts a long time, as does Pyrocat if you get it in the Glycol. Which one you use is more of a personal choice. I'm on the fence myself. I used PMK for years, then used Pyrocat (the P and PC versions) for the last decade. Looking back at all the negs and prints I couldn't really tell you which I prefer. Pyrocat is supposedly better if you want a neg that can be both enlarged and used for making alternative prints. I don't make alternative prints, so it doesn't matter to me. I've also read claims that Pyrocat is better for printing on VC paper and PMK is better for making contact prints on graded paper. If you are a good printer it won't matter in my experience.

Hope that helps.

 

[Eric Rose]

I find the PyroCat negs better for scanning as well.

 

[Ian Grant]

I've used Pyrocat-HD with FP-4+ for both 4x5 and 8x10 sizes, processed using a minimal agitation technique and in Jobo Expert Drums, and I can assure you that it's a wonderful combination! Look up the work of Steve Sherman; I believe he has used nothing but FP-4+ and Pyrocat-HD for something like 10 years.

Thanks Alan, yes I know of Steve Sherman's work. I switched from FP4 aftermany years use (I also used FP3) to AP/APX100 back in about 1987, with Tmax100 as my back up, later I switched to Delta 100 & 400 because I just couldn't get Tmax when living outside the UK/Europe and travelling abroad, APX100 had been discontinued.

I'm amazed at the quality of the HP5/Pyrocat HD combination which I only began using for shooting LF hand-held with a Crown or Super Graphic maybe 8 or 9 years ago. But while Pyrocat is excellent with Tmax and Delta 100 & 400 Id expect the Fp4/Pyrocat HD combination to mirror HP5 and be even better. I have 3 boxes of 5x4 FP4 so once the Delta 100 is finished I'll find out

Ian

 

[Ian Grant]

I find the PyroCat negs better for scanning as well.

They scan so easily and they print so amazingly well in the darkroom, best of all worlds.

Ian

 

[JensH]

Hi,

interesting threat, I'm going to try the extremly compensating Windisch formula (catechol with very low sulfite) published in his book "Die neue Foto Schule" 1943.
Did anyone ever use this developer? I'd like to see some images...

Best
Jens

 

[Ian Grant]

Hi,

interesting threat, I'm going to try the extremly compensating Windisch formula (catechol with very low sulfite) published in his book "Die neue Foto Schule" 1943.
Did anyone ever use this developer? I'd like to see some images...

Best
Jens

1943 ? My oldest copy is 1938

and in English as The New Photo School, I have a German

1944 edition of Deie Neue Foto Schule as well as the much later 1956

The Manual of Modern Photography - The Technique - Hans Winds.

More seriously Hans Windisch is one of the most important advocates of the modern way we work now compared to the way mist worked before WWII. The old ways were over exposure and quite high contrast development to overcome lens flare but thi gave a lot of grain. Windisch was part of the new ways moving to smaller formats, and as meters became affordable accurate exposure. keep development and contrast lower, far better sharpness and acutance and far less grain.

The formula you refer to is his compensating developer incorrectly published in the US with the weights reversed Pyrocat/Sulphite and refereed to as the US version in the BJPA in the UK. I have tried it but it's not worth revisiting, Windisch's W665 is a far better option and Perutz used to make/sell some developers he devised.

The films of the late 30's and 40's are so different compared to what we have today, the Windisch compensating formula is a surface developer for old style thick emulsions with inherently poor sharpness, there are better developers today.

Ian

 

[JensH]

1943 ? My oldest copy is 1938

and in English as The New Photo School, I have a German

1944 edition of Deie Neue Foto Schule as well as the much later 1956

The Manual of Modern Photography - The Technique - Hans Winds.

More seriously Hans Windisch is one of the most important advocates of the modern way we work now compared to the way mist worked before WWII. The old ways were over exposure and quite high contrast development to overcome lens flare but thi gave a lot of grain. Windisch was part of the new ways moving to smaller formats, and as meters became affordable accurate exposure. keep development and contrast lower, far better sharpness and acutance and far less grain.

The formula you refer to is his compensating developer incorrectly published in the US with the weights reversed Pyrocat/Sulphite and refereed to as the US version in the BJPA in the UK. I have tried it but it's not worth revisiting, Windisch's W665 is a far better option and Perutz used to make/sell some developers he devised.

The films of the late 30's and 40's are so different compared to what we have today, the Windisch compensating formula is a surface developer for old style thick emulsions with inherently poor sharpness, there are better developers today.

Ian

Hi Ian,

Yes, really from 1943. Achte Auflage (8th edition). Your german 1944 book is Neunte Auflage then?

I wand to know how this developer compares to the two bath developers, I often use (Tetenal Emofin and Moersch MZB). The Emofin is no longer sold and the MZB is not good to develope 4"x5" in rotary drums like my Jobo 3010. Fine Grain is less important to me.

I know about pre 1945 thick emulsion. Just exposed about 130 glass plates and nitro films for this project:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/136145166@N02/albums/72157686135321996

Best
Jens

 

[grimp0teuthis]

I have had a very good experience with Pyrocat-MC in glycol (1:1:100) from Photographer's Formulary. Here is one example.

 

[john_s]

PMK tends to oxidize faster with exposure to air. To the point where after about 13 minutes in an ordinary inversion tank (not a lot of air) extra time made absolutely no difference. I discovered this when I wanted a little more contrast and prolonged dev time to no effect at all. Then I tried an experiment and found that PMK that had developed a roll had zero effect on exposed film immediately after.

Maybe for tray developing a stronger dilution would be worth trying. I have read that people doing rotation developing sometimes replenish their PMK part way through processing.

 

[Kawaiithulhu]

Bergger recommendation to just be sales hype

I asked them if they had baseline development numbers for pyrocat-HD and was told that they don't have any test results right now, then PMK got mentioned. SO maybe.

I tried a roll of 35mm pancro in a Jobo, I'm pretty sure I under-developed because I was incredulous of the 18+ minutes for PMK and the results were weak... I don't recall the French author mentioning his timing specifics.
I'm going to try again and give a roll the full 18 minutes and use fresh bottles of pyrocat because my others are pretty old.

 

[Bob Carnie]

PMK tends to oxidize faster with exposure to air. To the point where after about 13 minutes in an ordinary inversion tank (not a lot of air) extra time made absolutely no difference. I discovered this when I wanted a little more contrast and prolonged dev time to no effect at all. Then I tried an experiment and found that PMK that had developed a roll had zero effect on exposed film immediately after.

Maybe for tray developing a stronger dilution would be worth trying. I have read that people doing rotation developing sometimes replenish their PMK part way through processing.

That is what I do , 14min overall Normal 7 min and 7min

 

[TheFlyingCamera]

Pyrocat-HD is probably the friendliest of the pyro family for getting started. Easy to work with, easy to mix, prints beautifully, scans beautifully. It's now my go-to developer regardless of film format or brand - I run Tri-X, FP4+, even PanF+ and TMax in it. I do all my processing these days in a Jobo (2500-series drums for 120 film, Expert drums for sheet).

 

[Ian Grant]

Pyrocat-HD is probably the friendliest of the pyro family for getting started. Easy to work with, easy to mix, prints beautifully, scans beautifully. It's now my go-to developer regardless of film format or brand - I run Tri-X, FP4+, even PanF+ and TMax in it. I do all my processing these days in a Jobo (2500-series drums for 120 film, Expert drums for sheet).

Adding to what Scott says about Pyrocat HD, I'd make one comment as long as the Metabisulphite is reasonably fresh it'll easily last up to 2 and even 3 years just made up in deionised or distilled water - that's based on 10+ yeras usingnthe devloper and keeping stock in both the UK and Turkey. One proviso the bottles must be good, glass or high density plastic - I use HD plastic.

Ian

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Been using Pyrocat-HD for 15 years. I mix from scratch. Just pick one and use it for a while. Then try another. I've used PMK, rollo pyro (which is pmk for continuous agitation), and Obsidian Aqua... but always come back to Pyrocat-HD.

 

[Patrick Robert James]

This thread made me take a close look at the differences between Pyrocat and PMK. I've never done a side by side comparison of the two unfortunately, but looking at the thousands of negs I have shot across all formats the one thing that stands out to me is PMK seems to have nicer, smoother high tones.

I've never had any issues scanning negs

I think I am going to order some PMK and use it for a while.

 

[john_s]

This thread made me take a close look at the differences between Pyrocat and PMK. I've never done a side by side comparison of the two unfortunately, but looking at the thousands of negs I have shot across all formats the one thing that stands out to me is PMK seems to have nicer, smoother high tones.

I've never had any issues scanning negs

I think I am going to order some PMK and use it for a while.

The colour of the stain affects the response of VC papers, with PMK giving somewhat lower contrast than Pyrocat. In my experience it didn't make a lot of difference, probably because I tend to develop to a lower contrast because of my subject matter, and although my negs certainly look different to those done in non-staining developers, they don't look like some examples one sees illustrated on the internet. I remember seeing one example of stupendously green PMK negs. I can't find the link, but I'll try again.

Conversely, it may be that with graded (blue sensitive) papers the contrast of PMK might be higher but I don't know. The article by Sandy King
http://www.sandykingphotography.com/resources/technical-writing/pyro-staining-developers

is well worth a read.

 

[removedacct1]

Thank you all for your thoughtful responses. I think I have the data I need for now. Thanks!

Paul

 

[DREW WILEY]

I've experimented with various pyro formulas, including a couple of new tweaks of my own. But my go-to standard is PMK. I use it in trays for 4X5 and 8X10 sheet film, and in hand inversion tanks for roll film. I don't recommend it for rotary processors. But I'm a bit confused by certain previous posts claiming problems with longer times. What specific films are involved, and what is your agitation technique? I've never had that problem.