Of Slides and Movies

[AgX]

I still have my movie camera from the 1950's. A wind up model with a three lens turret. Unfortunately, it shoots 8mm not super 8.

There is a variety of regular-8 films.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

There is a variety of regular-8 films.

Didn';t know that. Who?

 

[Lee Rust]

There is a variety of regular-8 films.

There's Fomapan B&W reversal film in double 8, and I'm pretty sure there are a few others from European manufacturers.

After ignoring movie-making for most of my life, I now find myself taking an interest. The old equipment is mostly pretty cheap but the film and processing are so expensive! Maybe it's the perverse challenge of recording moving pictures the old-fashioned way when everybody else is casually posting and watching hundreds of millions of free and easy online videos every day. I've been surprised by how much time and thought can go into the production of a two-and-a-half-minute movie. Slow Imaging!

Meanwhile, I'm happy to see the return of Ektachrome. 35mm slide film has been my favorite for decades because I can directly view an entire roll of transparencies on a Print File page, reserving the trouble and expense of printing for only a select few. Today I went to the (only) local photo store here in Kodak's hometown Rochester to see if they had any E100, but the very last roll had just been snapped up by an eager young enthusiast only minutes before I arrived. The next allotment won't arrive for another week or two.

One of the store employees mentioned that many of the student photogs who flock in to check out the cool new Ektachrome are surprised and confused when they're told that the film is rated at only ISO 100. For them it's a first encounter with Slow Imaging, but hopefully not the last.

 

[twelvetone12]

I think nowadays you can basically just get Fomapan-R in double 8mm, maybe some ORWO stock and leftover Wittnerchrome. When Wittner used to reperforate for third parties, some people made batches of Vision3 and TriX, but that seems all gone.
I hope somebody will reperforate E100 in 8mm, I loved it and used hundred of meters untile 2012.

 

[AgX]

There is a variety of regular-8 films.

ORWO UN 54
Agfa Avichrome 200
Fomapan R 100

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

ORWO UN 54
Agfa Avichrome 200
Fomapan R 100

Thanks.

 

[Agulliver]

I could still buy process-paid super 8 Kodachrome in Boots up until 2001...it was on the shelves, fresh, in-date...cost £13.99 by that time. Then after 2001 Boots stopped offering it. But clearly *someone* other than me was buying super 8 film. I think the Widescreen Centre in London reported they were still selling around 75,000 cartridges a year and they were not the only retailers selling those sorts of numbers. this would all be around the turn of the millennium.

The other Kodak Ektachrome offerings I'd buy in super 8 from online retailers until E100 was dropped. I last shot some in 2012....but there are still people shooting super 8 who want to shoot colour reversal. And I guess the Ektachrome revival was spurred on by Kodak's announcement of their new super 8 camera and the positive interest it gained from press and public. I fully intend to shoot super 8 again. I think the last cine film of any type that I shot was Fomapan 100R in standard 8mm in 2013.

 

[trendland]

I remember taking a film class in high school. It took me a full semester to shoot that 3 minutes of movie that was required.

Yes Bill in that concern you stated - I mentioned something at above. If a film class would decide today on a students film (short movie - for example 6 - 8 min.) they can decide on video ( guess older video - systems are not avaible any longer) ! But that isn´t a great problem.
There are modern digital systems of all kind one can imagine. The post production is BTW digital on normal computers ( you don`t need expensive workstations - exception 4k realtime with multi layers ).

So if they decide on a students film with movie film they may use 16mm - but that is realy expensive. So Kodak have the idea to come on Super8 ? The idea isn`t bad but it is bad unrealistic from the total costs.

Let me ask : Do you remember Bill how many rolls you had exposed to reach the lenght of your students film ? A very good workflow on professional filming was allways 1 :6 =6 min. raw material 6 min. / final film lenght 1 min. But even with TV dokumentary most realisators/directors
were not able to reach it. They became trouble from their producer in charge when they came back with 1 :10 ( if they got 1:15 they were fired....) Today with Video and digital we are talking about 1:20 and 1:30 -because the costs are not any longer such a problem.

Seriously a film class will have 1 : 8 / 1 :10 with Super 8 that will cost ( final lenght 8 minutes ) too much money ! You would need how many rolls Super8 Ektachrome100 ? Lets say 2:45 min with 24 frames ( I did not well remeber the actual lenght but it is a very good guess) !

That makes round about 30 rolls Super8 (without calculator - OK?) for your student film = USD 2400,- without costs of camera equipment and post production. The death of Kodaks original plans I would say......!

with regards

PS : A masterclass of 15 film students would need around USD 40.000,- just for their Ektachrome rolls - but with that money the academy can afford a digital midt format camera with 4K video resolution - next avaible if you just have to wait for 6 month !
And with biggest digital sensors you will rech real Hollywood LOOK -BTW 4k isn`t so bad !

But seriouisly it isn`t a bad philosophy to teach film students on film - but therefore Kodak have to sponsor the Ektachrome Films - it is outside of any regular business plan........because there are no million sellings from other people who
demand Super8 Film - that all is realy confusional - isn`t it ?

 

[trendland]

I could still buy process-paid super 8 Kodachrome in Boots up until 2001...it was on the shelves, fresh, in-date...cost £13.99 by that time. Then after 2001 Boots stopped offering it. But clearly *someone* other than me was buying super 8 film. I think the Widescreen Centre in London reported they were still selling around 75,000 cartridges a year and they were not the only retailers selling those sorts of numbers. this would all be around the turn of the millennium.

The other Kodak Ektachrome offerings I'd buy in super 8 from online retailers until E100 was dropped. I last shot some in 2012....but there are still people shooting super 8 who want to shoot colour reversal. And I guess the Ektachrome revival was spurred on by Kodak's announcement of their new super 8 camera and the positive interest it gained from press and public. I fully intend to shoot super 8 again. I think the last cine film of any type that I shot was Fomapan 100R in standard 8mm in 2013.

I am not against Super8 I have to state to make it clear - but to me it isn`a good deal any longer. There may be others who will spent money for some rolls time to time. But If I remember to shot 15 Super8 rolls just during Hollydays in the 90th and that was normal and just a bit
expensive ( may be others remember also the pricing 1994 ) - it isn`t affordable today ( USD1200,- for Ektachrome Hollydays....) perhaps I will buy a single roll to feed my Nizo proffessional just a for last time to shot " TIMESLAP" ?

with regards

 

[trendland]

BTW USD 1200,- are the costs of neary 100 Ektachrome in 35mm ( without developing ) and that is around 3600 slides with the result of min. 150 excellent slides ( just from my personal workflow..shame)
Isn`t that the better option ? iNSTEAD HAVING 39 min. Super8 without 2K transfer wich may cost USD 1200,- in addition ?

with regards

PS : For that money I may shot a student film - but a todays academy perhaps will not see what I am able to shot !

 

[BAC1967]

Wittner Cinitec is the biggest supplier of movie film right now. They will perforate 16mm film to convert it to Doble 8mm, I’ll be getting that in Ektachrome as soon as they make it available. I prefer to shoot Double 8 over Super 8 but my stock of the old Ektachrome is nearly gone.
http://www.wittnercinetec.com

Based on some of the comments on this thread I don’t think some people here realize that Super 8 film was the biggest reason for brining back Ektachrome, not 35mm still film. That’s why they were also working on a new Super 8 camera. Fuji makes some very good slide film but they no longer make any movie film, Kodak didn’t get back into it just to compete with Fuji. That’s also a big reason why Ferrania is getting back into it. There are plenty of us old movie film shooters out there plus a new crop of hipsters shooting it. As you can see I bought a lot more Super 8 than 35mm.

 

[Europan]

Within Kodak’s motion-picture film business Super-8 became a billion Dollar thing, huge. Kodachrome, Kodachrome II, Kodachrome 25 and Kodachrome 40 was produced, sold, and used by the thousands of miles. I used to walk in my photo dealer’s shop and walk out with a pack of ten cartridges. The easy snap-in loading contributed largely to Super-8’s success. The other part was an automatic camera.

But the Double-Eight industry was as big as the Super-8 one. At the end of the 1950s you had the choice among dozens of camera and projector brands, dozens of lens makers, at least a dozen of film manufacturers. Let’s see: Eastman-Kodak, Agfa-Ansco, Agfa, Perutz, Gevaert, Konica, Fujifilm, Orwo, Pathé, Lumière, Crumière, Schleussner-Adox, Foma, Foton, Ferrania, Du Pont, 3M, Tasma, Svema, Dynacolor, Ilford, Bauchet

 

[MattKing]

One of the best things about this thread is how it highlights how different each of our experiences are and were with and in the world of "film".

 

[AgX]

And even own experience can be split. I wrote about S-8 being a big deal, but as a child I only knew one family who actually got a S-8 camera. Notwithstanding I saw it marketed as people's hobby.

 

[Arklatexian]

Since most of the discussion around the new Ektachrome has been on this forum, I figured it is the best place to post this question. As those who have anxiously followed this new release know, we are getting a new slide film as pretty much an afterthought to Kodak wanting to bring out an amateur movie film. I just recently read that Kodachrome was originally introduced as a movie film and was only made available in still formats a year or two later, This leads to the obvious question. Is there actually more demand for Super 8 movie film than 35mm, 120 and even sheet size E-6 film?

When I was growing up in the '60's and '70's, I don't recall anyone who had a movie camera. I even had an uncle that had one of the big old Polaroids where you had to wipe the picture with the lacquer. Given all of the expense and inconvenience to set up a screen and projector for about a three minute snippet of silent, moving images this must have always been a niche market. Obviously it was used extensively for filming news events and a great deal of the combat footage from WWII was filmed on 8mm, but that market hasn't existed for decades.

When consumer video cameras first came out in the early 1980's, people who would have never have bothered with a movie camera flocked to get them. Even the huge, ungainly ones with a separate camera and a recorder that you carried in a satchel became an immediate "must have". For anyone who wanted to record their kids, or to record themselves making kids, videotape was the obvious choice. Even before the consumer models came out, news reporting had long before gone to tape.

The consumer video recorder must have devastated the market for amateur movie film. But the film companies soldiered on and continued to produce a product for a niche of a niche of a niche market. And now Kodak thinks enough folks will shell out $70+ for film and processing to merit bringing a on new movie film. So let's do a survey. How many folks will be using the movie film and how many will be shooting slides?

First, in the amateur market, there was 16mm B&W, then came 16mm Kodachrome and at almost the same time came 8mm cine and 35mm slides, also in Kodachrome. Shortly after came 4x5, 5x7, and 8x10 LF Kodachrome films. All of these Kodachromes had a film speed of ASA 8, later raised to ASA 10. Then came WW2 and most/all the color you saw was shot on Kodachrome. Hollywood, however had developed Technicolor for their 35mm cine films. Most of the color war pictures were shot on Kodachrome 16mm, 24 fps and copied to 35mm for theater projection. Amateurs were rationed to about 2 50 ft 8mm Kodachrome movie films a year and there was a waiting list that ended with the end of the war but the demand was so great that you were lucky to be able to get more than 2 rolls of 8mm film per year. Later, Kodak came out with Super 8 which some striped with magnetic tape and made "talkies". Until then, everything except Hollywoodfilms were silent. At the camera store where I worked in the 1950s, we sold about as much Kodachrome 8mm movie film as did slide film. It took a projector and screen to show slides too. But how beautiful they were....How did I know about this stuff? I was there and remember it........Regards!

 

[jim10219]

I know a bunch of people who were shooting 8mm in the 80's. Video tape came out, but it wasn't affordable to everyone, and people are luddites.

These days, people are obsessed with analog and nostalgia. You can't accurately replicate the look of film with computers. As a graphic designer, we are always looking for tools to take advantage of that nostalgia and give our work a unique aesthetic.

 

[twelvetone12]

True, my granddad used super8 until 1986 or so. He got a video camera only in the late 80s.
Then, a couple years later he did the great mistake to show me his super8 films... and the video camera was never used again

 

[AgX]

First, in the amateur market, there was 16mm B&W, then came 16mm Kodachrome and at almost the same time came 8mm cine and 35mm slides, also in Kodachrome. Shortly after came 4x5, 5x7, and 8x10 LF Kodachrome films. All of these Kodachromes had a film speed of ASA 8, later raised to ASA 10. Then came WW2 and most/all the color you saw was shot on Kodachrome. Hollywood, however had developed Technicolor for their 35mm cine films. Most of the color war pictures were shot on Kodachrome 16mm, 24 fps and copied to 35mm for theater projection. Amateurs were rationed to about 2 50 ft 8mm Kodachrome movie films a year and there was a waiting list that ended with the end of the war but the demand was so great that you were lucky to be able to get more than 2 rolls of 8mm film per year. Later, Kodak came out with Super 8 which some striped with magnetic tape and made "talkies". Until then, everything except Hollywoodfilms were silent. At the camera store where I worked in the 1950s, we sold about as much Kodachrome 8mm movie film as did slide film. It took a projector and screen to show slides too. But how beautiful they were....How did I know about this stuff? I was there and remember it........Regards!

Keep in mind that all is about the USA.
In the rest of the world, partially war struck and with lesser free income, foreign currency and import restrictions that looked much different.

In the USA Kodachrome first still film conversions were were 19 months late of 16mm cine.

 

[Europan]

I had begun to shoot Double-Eight in 1980. I switched from Super-8 to Double-Eight because I felt something wrong with “Super”-8. Something can’t be right, if it’s got to be called so. Double-Eight gave me the satisfaction I never had with Super-8, correctly constructed cameras and sturdy projectors. I don’t want to go into the technical details.

Millions of Double-Eight kits have been sold since 1932. They were expensive but they lasted until today and will endure another fifty years, if not more. I do service on purely mechanical and metal film equipment as a living. The plastic gear falls apart.

A 16mm camera from the twenties or thirties can serve perfectly well today. One thing is clear, humanity has changed fundamentally. People of today don’t know what slide shows and cinema were in the heydays. They were fascinating experiences. Fascination and fascism belong together. In a way I’m glad that that is over.

 

[fdonadio]

I switched from Super-8 to Double-Eight because I felt something wrong with “Super”-8.

You know there’s Double Super-8, right?

 

[guangong]

Nobody has mentioned the real reel diehards, those still using Pathe’s 9mm with sprockets between frames. Up to a few years ago I know that there were still some people using 9 mm in Europe. Have no idea when last 9mm camera and charger (magazine) was made, but most equipment must be antique.
Delivered a 16mm frame size on 9mm film, but no room for sound. Perhaps an APUG member knows if still hanging on in France? England?

 

[Chan Tran]

I won't be shooting any movies (or video for that matter). I spent big bucks in the early 80's to get a Beaulieu and shot a few rolls of Kodachrome and that was the end of it. I am no good at movies.

 

[Bill Burk]

You know there’s Double Super-8, right?

You mean super duper 8? (you file the film gate wide to open the otherwise wasted sound strip).

I bought a copy of this film after reading about it, quite fun.

http://friendlyfirefilms.com/superduper8.html

 

[railwayman3]

Nobody has mentioned the real reel diehards, those still using Pathe’s 9mm with sprockets between frames. Up to a few years ago I know that there were still some people using 9 mm in Europe. Have no idea when last 9mm camera and charger (magazine) was made, but most equipment must be antique.
Delivered a 16mm frame size on 9mm film, but no room for sound. Perhaps an APUG member knows if still hanging on in France? England?

There is still some definite interest in the UK in collecting 9.5mm (printed) films and equipment, but fresh film and processing seems to now be unavailable. Sadly, Grahame Newnham, who has been a stalwart of the gauge for many years, is at present unwell (see his site http://www.pathefilm.uk/ ), and we wish him a speedy recovery.

 

[fdonadio]

You mean super duper 8?

No, I mean Double Super-8, also known as DS-8, which is Double-8 film with the smaller Super-8 perforation. Here’s some info:

https://www.on8mil.com/2016/02/16/we-love-ds8-double-super-8/

Foma makes Fomapan 100R in DS-8.