Odd paper

Ian Grant · Mar 3, 2024

I acquired this paper last year, unbranded. However I did buy some similar Waterproof paper new in the 1070s, before the release of the Ilfospeed RC papers.

It's a PE (polythene encapsulated) paper. It would have been UK government/military surplus stock, made my Kodak Ltd or Ilford, or maybe Barnet or Kentmere. I would guess the term American Glossy just meant it air dried to a high gloss, without glazing.

In the late 1960s into the late 1970s there were 4 or 5 London shops specialising in surplus photographic stock, they shared one common partner.. They took out adverts in Amateur Photography then a weekly magazine. It's probable that these papers were repackaged from long rolls. The late Martin Reed founder of Silverprinyt in London, spent may an hour at work re-packaging Ilford FP3 & HP3 35mm cine film into 100 and 30 ft lengths.

I do have an advert somewhere from 1969 which lists the Waterproof paper.

Ian

koraks · Mar 3, 2024

Ian Grant said:
However I did buy some similar Waterproof paper new in the 1070s, before the release of the Ilfospeed RC papers.

I know RC paper has been around for a while, but I never realized it was in time for the first runs of the Domesday Book.

MattKing · Mar 3, 2024

Ian Grant said:
I did buy some similar Waterproof paper new in the 1070s

Ian Grant said:
In the late 1960s into the late 1070s

Ian,
You are older than I thought
(If you want to edit your posts and you would like me to, I'll delete this.

Ian Grant · Mar 3, 2024

Well we do get older . . . . .

And evidently the family has Norman roots

Ian

pentaxuser · Mar 3, 2024

Was this paper literally waterproof i.e capable of being left outside without any rain damage on a permanent basis on say a shaded North facing wall with no damage? Did the makers have a situation in mind that they saw it being used in?

I wonder how long current RC paper would survive ín similar circumstances

pentaxuser

koraks · Mar 3, 2024

pentaxuser said:
I wonder how long current RC paper would survive ín similar circumstances

Not all that long, really. There's the problem of water ingress along the edges.

Ian Grant said:
And evidently the family has Norman roots

Well, it's post 1066, I'll grant you that!

pentaxuser · Mar 3, 2024

Ian Grant said:
Well we do get older . . . . .

And evidently the family has Norman roots

Ian

I had heard that those ancestors who settled in "le pays noir" as it was originally called used to watch Ronald Fleurs and Stéphane Taureau. It's no coincidence either that the ground is called Molineux

You can't get much more French that

pentaxuser

Ian Grant · Mar 3, 2024

pentaxuser said:
Was this paper literally waterproof i.e capable of being left outside without any rain damage on a permanent basis on say a shaded North facing wall with no damage? Did the makers have a situation in mind that they saw it being used in?

I wonder how long current RC paper would survive ín similar circumstances

No similar to RC papers, as already said water ingress causes issue over a bot 30 mins to an hour.

What's relevant is these are papers not commercially available, the water-proof paper was most likely made for the RAF.

Ian

pentaxuser · Mar 3, 2024

koraks said:
Not all that long, really. There's the problem of water ingress along the edges.

So, any idea of the point of making waterproof paper ? They must have seen some kind of a need for it Ina has just said to whom it might have been made for, namely the RAF I wonder why if 30 mins to 1 hour is about all you get. Unless of course that is much longer than today's RC paper would give you as that might explain it

Thanks

pentaxuser

koraks · Mar 3, 2024

pentaxuser said:
So, any idea of the point of making waterproof paper ?

It'll work OK as long as it doesn't remain wet for too long, and as long as the emulsion doesn't get stuck to something else while wet.

pentaxuser said:
I wonder why if 30 mins to 1 hour is about all you get

Well, a lot longer than that, I imagine. RC prints evidently remain just fine if you keep them submerged for a few hours. A few days...maybe. At some point the emulsion starts to weaken too much. By my "Not all that long" remark, I was thinking about a timescale of weeks/months, given the mention of a "permanent basis".
I don't know how these older papers were waterproofed; I would presume they might have been waxed.

Ian Grant · Mar 3, 2024

koraks said:
It'll work OK as long as it doesn't remain wet for too long, and as long as the emulsion doesn't get stuck to something else while wet.

Well, a lot longer than that, I imagine. RC prints evidently remain just fine if you keep them submerged for a few hours. A few days...maybe. At some point the emulsion starts to weaken too much. By my "Not all that long" remark, I was thinking about a timescale of weeks/months, given the mention of a "permanent basis".
I don't know how these older papers were waterproofed; I would presume they might have been waxed.

No not true even leaving overnight damages the edges, that/s from experience.

Ian

MattKing · Mar 3, 2024

Aircrew inflight manuals?

koraks · Mar 3, 2024

Ian Grant said:
No not true even leaving overnight damages the edges, that/s from experience.

Ian

Yes, the very edges; I agree. They will start to swell after an hour or so on most papers. The corners more so, usually, due to agitation. Most of the image will still be fine at that point, however. How much of a problem there is with the edges, depends on the purpose.

MattKing said:
Aircrew inflight manuals?

Yes, who knows. Or materials intended for surveillance and law enforcement purposes. "Do you recognize the man in this photograph? Here, let me wipe the coffee and donuts off of his face. There's some stuck on the backside, too."

MattKing · Mar 3, 2024

If it was British navy material, I would think submarine crew.

pentaxuser · Mar 3, 2024

MattKing said:
If it was British navy material, I would think submarine crew.

I wondered if it might be for situations where you might be in a rain shower or sea spray but a submarine is about the only place that is totally dry by its very nature, isn't it?Unless you find water spray all over the place from many shower head-like holes in which case at say 100 ft or more waterproof paper might be the last thing you need to be concerned about

Being a bit more serious I am sure there was a good reason for it but I am not sure we have found it

pentaxuser

BobUK · Mar 3, 2024

Could this paper have been made for use in very humid tropical regions ?

Craig · Mar 3, 2024

pentaxuser said:
So, any idea of the point of making waterproof paper ?

I think that "waterproof" = RC as we understand it today. That would be tremendously useful for things like making prints from an air photo surveillance trip, where it was necessary to have the data quickly to decide battle plans.

You can do a dry-dry with RC in about 3 min, vs hours for fibre based paper, plus it lies flat. That would be essential for stereoscope viewing to see topography.

dynachrome · Mar 3, 2024

There are stories of people finding dye sub prints under a pile of snow and undamaged.

mshchem · Mar 3, 2024

Kodak made Resisto papers that were on a treated paper base designed for rapid processing, quick washing and hang drying. I'm reading this from an old Kodak book. Sounds like it could be described as a waterproof base.

Ian Grant · Mar 4, 2024

Here's 1969 adverts for both papers.

I was buying FP3 from this supplier while at school. 40/- (£2) for essentially 20 rolls of 35mm film.And in the Classifieds the Waterproof paper.

For context the full page advert.

This waterproof paper was definitely PE not RC.

Ian

Sal Santamaura · Mar 4, 2024

Ian Grant said:
...This waterproof paper was definitely PE not RC...

How do those two differ? I always thought PE was the British (and other countries') term for what we in the U.S. refer to as RC.

koraks · Mar 4, 2024

Sal Santamaura said:
How do those two differ?

I was wondering the same. I can see a technical difference in that PE stands for polyethene (or formerly polyethylene) and RC stands for resin coated. Technically, PE is not a resin, so they should be different things. In practice, however, all contemporary "RC" papers are to the best of my knowledge PE-coated. Well, apart from some very new papers that are just around the corner that will no longer be PE-coated, but with something else...those are not for sale yet, I think.

Todd Barlow · Mar 4, 2024

“…In the 1070’s”

Must have been a direct result of the Norman Conquest.

Ian Grant · Mar 4, 2024

Sal Santamaura said:
How do those two differ? I always thought PE was the British (and other countries') term for what we in the U.S. refer to as RC.

PE means the paper base is polythene encapsulated, with a thin film on both sides when you tear a print which isn't easy you see the polythene stretch slightly then break, so quite different to RC where the paper base is coated with a resin.

Ilford where the first company to offer an RC B&W paper Ilfospeed in 1974, and I have a 1976 (roughly) Kentmere Kenthene RC box in my darkroom, I use it to store datasheets. Agfa also used RC base.

The similar Waterproof paper I bought in the early 1970s, advertised by AW Young, would have almost certainly been ex-RAF or Royal Navy stock. Waterproof to speed up washing and drying times, and maybe water usage in board Navy ships. My old De Vere 54a enlarger sat in an anti-vibration cradle so was from a navy vessel.

I visited Marston & Heard, and AW Young's surplus stores in the early 1970s and they were Aladdin's caves of equipment, much never listed in their adverts, as well as large stocks of film & paper, etc.

Ian

Ian Grant · Mar 4, 2024

A slight correction earlier Agfa papers were PE, then they switched to RC. I used a box of10x8 Agfa Multigrade Classic RC around 1993/4, the box is used to store prints, but earlier Portriga Speed was PE based.

Ian

Odd paper

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