Obtaining softer grades with graded paper

[Jarvman]

Hello! I've got some grade 4 oriental seagull paper, the old nice stuff. I want to print on it but the image destined for it is more like a grade 2 when printing on VC paper. I've read about beers formulas, so should I use a soft working one to achieve the right contrast on this paper? if so, which? Any ideas would be gladly appreciated. Many thanks, Gareth

 

[Ian Grant]

Either Dr Beers softest mix, or make up ID-3/D165 (Selectol Soft) that gives about a grade less contrast, also flashing can help in some cases.

Ian

 

[Jim Noel]

Use a soft working developer or a two developer system. In the two developer system develop first in the soft developer until highlights are correct and then move, w/o rinsing, to the standard developer to bring in the shadows.
I can not recommend a particular developer sa I don't know what is available for you. If you can mix the De Beers they work very well.

 

[Ian Grant]

De Beers is Diamonds, Dr Beers designed the developer, one is worth more than the other

Ian

 

[Nicholas Lindan]

You can get softer results with water-bath development where you move the paper from the developer to a water bath, where it sits for a few minutes, and back to the developer, repeating as needed. You can also just use a very dilute developer - say Dektol at 1:8. Or you can use a 'soft working' developer.

All of these methods require you to increase the exposure time to get a full black on the paper. They are all variations on the old 'overexpose and underdevelop' method used for film. Paper is normally developed to completion, for softer results the paper is removed from the developer before it has fully developed. The problem is that paper that is pulled quickly from the developer hasn't had time to develop evenly; water bath, dilute developer and soft-developer methods are just ways to slow down development so that it is even across the paper.

 

[Ian Grant]

A soft working developer doesn't necessarily mean that the paper need increased exposure to get a maximum black or that it's effectively being pulled. It's more about the balance of the developing agent(s) in the formula.

On the other hand with a normal contrast print developer increased exposure and pulling the print early can have a similar effect.

Ian

 

[pgomena]

A "pseudo-Beers" can be had by using Kodak Selectol-Soft as the first developer and Dektol as the second. I'm not sure Selectol-Soft is still marketed, however, but you may have a package hidden somewhere in a dark corner of your darkroom.

Peter Gomena

 

[pentaxuser]

Doesn't what Tim Rudman calls "Pre-development bleaching " achieve the same thing. In his book, "The Photographer's Master Printing Course" Tim gives some good examples of its effect. It looks pretty impressive to me and appears fairly easy to do.

I hesitate to add this bit due to the controversy it seemed to cause in another thread but in the interests of member education, isn't what Tim called pre-development bleaching and the thing called SLIMT by David Kachel the same or similar things?

pentaxuser

 

[Ian Grant]

It's not really pseudo as it's almost the same, Agfa (Germany) had a pair of similar developers and so did Defender (Dupont).

Ian

 

[Jarvman]

Cheers for the responses, interesting to hear different methods of approaching it. I'm going to go the beers route, got everything I need to concoct it in the darkroom apart from metol. speaking of, its saturday night an theres a Hoegaaden in the fridge.

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

Yum. You and I have something in common! There's a few of those in my fridge also.

speaking of, its saturday night an theres a Hoegaaden in the fridge.

 

[Rafal Lukawiecki]

This may not work with Oriental, but you could try exposing it using the softest multigrade filter you have. To my surprise, I have discovered that some graded papers actually have a multigrade-like behaviour in a limited but very visible fashion. See the pictures I uploaded of two test strips printed on the same sheet of graded paper showing a much softer and a harder response in this thread: (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Rafal

 

[2F/2F]

You have some ideas so far...but are you aware that Oriental grade 4 is no longer made? Are you sure you want to tweak it to grade 2 rather than use it for what it is naturally good at? I'd love to have some for high contrast work, myself, but they don't make it!

 

[Jarvman]

Yes I realize that 2f. It's one of those special images which I want to print on what I've heard is an outstanding paper. I will look for other images that are suited to it but I haven't printed much in grade 4 whatsoever. You have good taste Thomas, I was just missing a wedge of lime!

 

[el wacho]

an old timer told me once that you can use a yellow k2 filter under the lens to tame G4 paper down. he was also selling boxes of 100 sheet 8x10 g4 paper very cheap.

 

[Mike Wilde]

One tenth the amount of phenidone is a good close substitute for metol; it just does not keep as well as the metol stock in my experience.

 

[Ian Grant]

One tenth the amount of phenidone is a good close substitute for metol; it just does not keep as well as the metol stock in my experience.

No, it keeps better

PQ developers have a longer shelf & dish life than the MQ equivalent.

Ian

 

[Vlad Soare]

Yes I realize that 2f. It's one of those special images which I want to print on what I've heard is an outstanding paper.

It's an outstanding paper only if it's used as it was intended to be.
If you force it to work outside its normal range, by printing negatives not suited to it, then it might prove not to be so outstanding anymore.
I have no experience with Oriental, but I have a feeling that a "normal" paper matched to your negative will look better than an "outstanding" paper of the wrong contrast grade.

If I were very determined to use this particular paper no matter what, I would try either pre-flashing, or water bath development (preferably in an amidol developer), or both.
I tried using a diluted developer once, when I had run out of variable contrast paper and wanted to print a contrasty negative on normal grade paper. I didn't like it. It did lower the global contrast, indeed, but it also killed local contrast and gave the print an unacceptably muddy look.

 

[Steve Sherman]

Hello! I've got some grade 4 oriental seagull paper, the old nice stuff. I want to print on it but the image destined for it is more like a grade 2 when printing on VC paper. I've read about beers formulas, so should I use a soft working one to achieve the right contrast on this paper? if so, which? Any ideas would be gladly appreciated. Many thanks, Gareth

By the wording you use it sounds as though you are new to printing and if not new to printing new to Oriental / ANY grade 4 paper. As has been suggested Grade 4 papers are few and far between nowadays and therefore should be conserved for images which dictate that grade of paper to be successful.

To specifically answer your question all of the suggestions would be helpful in diminishing contrast but none so much as "flashing" which means controlling a measured amount of "non image forming light" to fall on the paper. As has been stated, it will lower the global contrast of your grade 4 and may indeed muddy the micro contrast, therein lies the reason you are better to try and control the area of the print you allow to be flashed, such as only the highlights or areas of highest contrast.

Lastly, I've always been a "graded paper" proponent, that said, recently I've had occasion to use Ilford Multigrade IV and can attest it is a terrific paper and can with greater flexibility impart various grades of contrast throughout a single print much easier than the tricks necessary with graded papers.

My advice, save the grade 4 for a print demanding / deserving and go the multi contrast route, especially if B&W printing is not yet engrained in you as graded papers will be gone soon if not already.

Cheers

 

[Mike Wilde]

No, it keeps better

PQ developers have a longer shelf & dish life than the MQ equivalent.

Ian

Thanks Ian - I have got in the practice of keeping a 10% phenidone stock in alcohol, and while it does not fully dissolve, a good stir gets it evenly dispersed, and thus allows small weights to be measured out by volume.

 

[Jarvman]

Steve, I'm not totally new to printing. Although I have a whole lot to learn yet. Flashing is a good option too. I flashed the print when working on VC paper. I have just attached the image in question. It would be difficult to selectively flash the background area around the children accurately. The grade to get contrast in their faces is probably close to grade 4. When split grading the print I dodge that area a lot during the grade 0 exposure. I've got a really nice print of this on Foma 123 VC paper but really wanted to print it on the Seagull. Maybe making the paper perform against its characteristics isn't the best idea. I was going to mainly use it for lith printing.

 

[Ian Grant]

You flash the whole print, it has very little effect on the mid-tones & shadows but a large effect on the highlights. Should work well with this image.

Ian

 

[Jarvman]

Cheers Ian, in that case do you think I should bother using the softest beers formula to process this print or do you imagine could I tame the contrast in normal developer purely by flashing? Might be worth trying both.

 

[Steve Sherman]

Several things, Lith printing is possible with both types of paper, however, better suited to cholorobromide emulsions (warmtone) rather than pure bromide emulsions such as Oriental.

Flashing certainly has it's greatest effect in the highlights, or lightest gradations of tone and virtually no effect in the deep shadows however it will to a degree diminish the contrast in the mid tones. When flashing, I would have in my mind the shape of the area I want to flash and then I would align two pencils at right angles to one another and off to the edge of the enlarging paper. At the point where these two lines would imaginarily intersect would be the "center" of my shape that I wanted non imaging forming light to fall. After testing for the first hint of tonality I would control that amount of light to the selected area of the print.

Dr. beers developers are designed to be used in conjunction with one another to effect a wide range of paper contrasts from one paper. While you could use the strongest developer by itself to effect maximum contrast it unlikely that the weakest or softest contrast mixture would completely develop the paper to it's DMax. Therefore, I would steer clear of using just the softest acting developer on your grade 4 paper.

Lastly, seeing the image you have posted my approach would be to print the skin tones just a touch on the light side and then flash the majority of the top half of the paper because as you indicated it would be difficult to direct the light around the shapes of the two heads. If this action lessens the contrast within the boys faces too much then you could always selectively bleach back the specularity on the skin tones OR try using a multi contrast paper and use only the # 5 and # 0 filters as the means to expose the negative.

 

[Ian Grant]

Cheers Ian, in that case do you think I should bother using the softest beers formula to process this print or do you imagine could I tame the contrast in normal developer purely by flashing? Might be worth trying both.

Try flashing first as that will retain the contrast in the skin tones. A soft working developer will reduce overall contrast.

Ian