Number of rolls per one liter of the new C-41 chemistry

[What About Bob]

How many rolls can be developed from a one liter solution? I broke down the 2.5 liter kit because I only have one liter glass containers. The instructions go over mixing and storage but not of roll capacities.

to start off with I developed two current rolls and they came out fantastic then I started developing the older rolls I have. I just developed a total of five rolls roll so far After the third roll the results started to go downhill. Granted these last three rolls were older. The old T-Max 400CN came out good, the old VPS 160 came out not so good and the old PMC that I just processed is near blank. I have a feeling that the next roll might come out totally blank. Maybe I should mix up a fresh batch?

Would this be on account of the rolls being too old? The last two had fog in them which is expected. Thanks

Update: This is in regards to the new Kodak C-41.

 

[Mick Fagan]

Bob, you're not going to like this, but 4 x 36 frame rolls per litre for optimal results. That said, I have successfully developed 4 rolls in 500ml of developer rotary processing for around 25-30 years.

My suggestion is not to re-use C41 solution, just get the maximum in one hit. My personal experience, is that the developer bath goes south really quickly, once used.

Page 36 has your answer.

https://business.kodakmoments.com/sites/default/files/wysiwyg/pro/chemistry/z131.pdf

 

[What About Bob]

Bob, you're not going to like this, but 4 x 36 frame rolls per litre for optimal results. That said, I have successfully developed 4 rolls in 500ml of developer rotary processing for around 25-30 years.

My suggestion is not to re-use C41 solution, just get the maximum in one hit. My personal experience, is that the developer bath goes south really quickly, once used.

Page 36 has your answer.

https://business.kodakmoments.com/sites/default/files/wysiwyg/pro/chemistry/z131.pdf

Hi Mick. Better to know this. Good thing I didn't continue. I lost this old roll. Looks like 3 rolls max per liter and 11 per gallon. The pro films I bet exhausted the developer a little more. Yikes.

Looks like for this next 1 liter batch I will stick to the 3 roll max and do them right on the spot, developing in one run without any delays. I was thinking of taping two 120 rolls onto a single reel but I never did that before and I would only attempt doing that on some current test films until I was confident enough. I will be here for a while doing singles, lol. I will then use the remaining 500ml mix at the end to do the last roll. I will have one remaining and it will need to wait or maybe I can get away with that last roll if I do it quick enough.

Sounds like I would need to get my hands on the 10 or more liter developer packs. The bleach and fixer would have more staying power.

Thanks for the datasheet, Mick. I saved it.

 

[What About Bob]

I am thinking maybe the Arista kit would be a better option to use on the old film rolls? All I would need to do is hold on to the final rinse and use my formalin stabilizer in place of it at the end.

 

[Mick Fagan]

The bleach and fixer components have roughly twice the film throughput over the developer.

 

[koraks]

the old VPS 160 came out not so good and the old PMC that I just processed is near blank

Do these films have edge markings? If so, how did these come out?
I would not expect to see visible degradation on the negatives after just 3 rolls per liter. There may be measurable shifts, but the naked eye won't spot them on the negatives. Sounds like something else is going wrong.

Sounds like I would need to get my hands on the 10 or more liter developer packs.

I don't expect there to be any meaningful difference in developer capacity between these kits. C41 developer is more or less standardized. There's nothing that can be done to increase its capacity (without replenishment) without severely affecting performance - and even then, performance will drift.

 

[What About Bob]

Do these films have edge markings? If so, how did these come out?

On the VPS negatives the markings on the side are clear. I can see them through my magnifier.

On the PMC roll, last roll, It is very difficult to see. I have to shine a flashlight through the film to get at the sides. I do see "Kodak PMC 6059" on the sides. I don't know if this is film fog, or something with the development. I had thought of insufficient bleaching but I haven't had any problems with bleaching before.

 

[What About Bob]

I have done three of the old films so far. These were done after the two current Kodak Gold 200 rolls. It seems that the brown color and quality gradually went down after each process run. The first old roll was brownish but it wasn't bad, T-Max 400CN. Second roll showed more of the problem, VPS 160 and then the last one, PMC, is gonzo. The PMC negatives are overall brown and needs a flashlight to cut through it. Any images on it are extremely faint.

Also wanted to add that I did a stop bath and water rinses after the development and the water rinse in between the bleach and fixer steps.

 

[koraks]

Old film is always a gamble; it's never quite clear what you'll get. Maybe try a strip test of fresh film in the current batch of developer?

 

[Skycreeper]

I always use replenisher. Add 30ml to 500ml every time. I have been doing so since I started to learn self developing, that was beginning July. Developed around 15 times now and result remains acceptable to my eyes.

 

[koraks]

result remains acceptable to my eyes.

I can't help but notice we've been working on a number of rather pronounced color problems in your negatives. While some of these were evidently caused by other factors than processing, I'd be very hesitant indeed to take your recent experience with color developing as a good benchmark. I'm sorry to be critical, but there are many, many variables at play here and I'm not at all convinced that you've managed to get them all under control since you started processing film only two months ago.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Bob, you're not going to like this, but 4 x 36 frame rolls per litre for optimal results. That said, I have successfully developed 4 rolls in 500ml of developer rotary processing for around 25-30 years.

My suggestion is not to re-use C41 solution, just get the maximum in one hit. My personal experience, is that the developer bath goes south really quickly, once used.

Page 36 has your answer.

https://business.kodakmoments.com/sites/default/files/wysiwyg/pro/chemistry/z131.pdf

Four rolls on 500ml is the maximum I have developed at a time. I put the used chemicals back in each container, reusing them until I have developed a maximum of 16 rolls per liter. I save up the rolls of film so that I can get the most out of the C41 chemistry in two or three days. I have not had contamination issues or color issues. I have been doing this for about as long as I have been a member in Photrio.

 

[blee1996]

I have done 16 rolls using 1L Bellini kit, with batches of 2-3 rolls each time, over 2-4 month period. After each 4 rolls, the dev/bleach/fix time is extended according to Bellini instructions. And the results are satisfactory.

Now I just started the "New Kodak" 5L kit, and developed 3 rolls in the first 1L bag A. I will report back once I get through more rolls from the 1L Bag A, using similar time adjustment as Bellini.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Four rolls on 500ml is the maximum I have developed at a time. I put the used chemicals back in each container, reusing them until I have developed a maximum of 16 rolls per liter. I save up the rolls of film so that I can get the most out of the C41 chemistry in two or three days. I have not had contamination issues or color issues. I have been doing this for about as long as I have been a member in Photrio.

I should have included that I use the 1 liter Unicolor kit which specifies 12 rolls, but the FreeStyle employees recommend a maximum of 16 rolls.

 

[What About Bob]

I have done 16 rolls using 1L Bellini kit, with batches of 2-3 rolls each time, over 2-4 month period. After each 4 rolls, the dev/bleach/fix time is extended according to Bellini instructions. And the results are satisfactory.

Now I just started the "New Kodak" 5L kit, and developed 3 rolls in the first 1L bag A. I will report back once I get through more rolls from the 1L Bag A, using similar time adjustment as Bellini.

Please report back on this. From the looks of it: The Kodak kit doesn't seem to go as long of a way than the other packaged kits do, according to the Z131 Kodak article that Mick posted. This is giving me more of a green light to go with the Arista kit instead of Kodak's for developing these old rolls but what holds me back is will the blix be all right to use with older films or should I still go with the separated bleach and fixer steps?

I have never used color materials with replenishment because I do not develop a lot of rolls. I just got back into doing color work about two weeks ago. My last time working with color was in the late 90s.

In one way I am glad that I am finally getting to these old films and yet at the same time it is a bit of a pain in the arse for me. Also I could be using this Kodak kit for newer films with actual purpose than to kind of waste it on old film but then again it is good to get the old film out of the way and once that is done I will not need to deal with it and also the formaldehyde anymore. That is unless someone I know ends up being a smart ass and says: "Hey Bob, I hear you develop old rolls of film. Can ya help me?"

The negative strip is still hanging from yesterday, the fifth film which was the Kodak PMC that flopped. It is very faint and pinkish and a tad brown. I had to use a magnifier and a light in front of it to get a gander of what the images could be and it appears that they are images of inside of a bar room! I am in one of the frames wearing a "Dazed and Confused" shirt. There is also someone on this negative who passed on almost five years ago. If this film is from the Moose Lodge then this puts the film being exposed around the fall of 1995!

I was thinking of rewashing, rebleaching and then restabilizing the film but since the brownness isn't like what it was maybe it wouldn't be necessary. As was stated I could do a test strip with new film to check developer but then this would be more time and would exhaust the developer more. I think I might just rmake a fresh batch of the chemistry to be on the safe side. I hate to toss this batch of bleach and fixer because these should still be good, should have more staying power.

Maybe I could have extended development a little more. I did 3:30 instead of the 3:15. I had forgotten about the general idea of one stop loss of film speed for every decade and this would call for an extended development. Instead of 3:30 I should have maybe went with 5 plus minutes? But then color balance would have probably went all over the place and the fogging probably would have went up proportionally. So many variables.

I will get back to it in another few days with a new mixed batch of chemistry. I have five more rolls of old film to go. If Kodak's datasheet is anything to go by I will just about make it with what I have left.

I like the idea of buying in bulk and mixing only what you need. The up-front cost is more but you get more out of it but yet I don't process a lot of film.

 

[MattKing]

The Kodak recommendations in Z-131 are designed to give you repeatable high quality results that fall within narrow tolerances that satisfy very demanding users who need high levels of colour and contrast and exposure fidelity.
The recommendations that accompany the other types of low volume user kits? Who knows for sure, but it is quite likely that they aren't even close to being as demanding.
You really shouldn't use your very old films to evaluate the performance of chemicals.
It is okay to use high quality chemicals to evaluate the performance of old films of uncertain quality.

 

[What About Bob]

I am tempted to sacrifice a fresh new roll just to see how that goes. If it comes out fine or not as bad then that would tell me that the old films that came out bad was because of the films themselves. What made me skeptical was that the degradation was gradual as I went along with the development runs.

As of now this liter of chemistry will be two weeks old tomorrow and has had two fresh films and three old films go through it. If I try with another fresh roll that will be six. Developer has been kept filled in an amber glass bottle.

 

[MattKing]

Don't forget that when you develop film, development byproducts are left in the used developer.
And those byproducts might very well be different if the film developed is new, fresh film vs. much older film with all sorts of different makeup.

 

[koraks]

will the blix be all right to use with older films or should I still go with the separated bleach and fixer steps?

Blix will be OK, but if you worry about it, you can use the separate bleach and fix from a different manufacturer.

the film being exposed around the fall of 1995!

A lot can happen to a latent image in 30 years. I wouldn't draw any conclusions for now concerning your chemistry and processing based on this experience.

I was thinking of rewashing, rebleaching and then restabilizing the film but since the brownness isn't like what it was maybe it wouldn't be necessary

It's not going to make the images stronger or anything.

a test strip with new film to check developer but then this would be more time and would exhaust the developer more.

A test strip of a couple of frames length will not significantly exhaust the developer (or bleach, fix etc.)

Instead of 3:30 I should have maybe went with 5 plus minutes?

In this particular case, with a color film exposed decades ago, what you could have done is develop normally or with somewhat extended time (let's say +50% or so). Then skip the bleach step and go straight to the fixer after the stop bath. Then, if the images are too faint, bleach the film, wash thoroughly and then develop it again. This will generate a stronger dye image. The process can be repeated. This will result in a higher contrast - but it will not make up for the loss of shadow detail that has either gone lost in overall fog, or that has disappeared due to instability of the latent image.

It's a bit experimental, and results will never be as good as using recently exposed fresh film, but sometimes you don't have much to lose.

 

[loccdor]

I am thinking maybe the Arista kit would be a better option to use on the old film rolls? All I would need to do is hold on to the final rinse and use my formalin stabilizer in place of it at the end.

Regarding the Arista/Unicolor/Tetenal 1-liter kits, about 15-20 before I start to notice some degradation. I usually stop at 20 but sometimes go all the way to 30. I do at least 3 water rinses between every step so as not to cross-contaminate. Much of the problem is the silver flakes that float around in it, some people put it through coffee filters, I don't have the patience. I am not RA4 printing so my parameters may not be as stringent as someone who is.

Usually when using long-expired films the problems are more related to the film itself than the development kit.

 

[What About Bob]

if the images are too faint, bleach the film, wash thoroughly and then develop it again. This will generate a stronger dye image. The process can be repeated. This will result in a higher contrast - but it will not make up for the loss of shadow detail that has either gone lost in overall fog, or that has disappeared due to instability of the latent image.

It's a bit experimental, and results will never be as good as using recently exposed fresh film, but sometimes you don't have much to lose.

The film is all ready cut into strips but I could still treat them in the developer and see if I could pull anything out, if this is still feasible? I will just need to rewash the strips and then restabilize them again afterward. I will be doing a test later on with cut film to check the condition of the developer. It has been two weeks since I mixed it and very little has been loss. The glass bottle is near-full.

I used my Canon T5 to take pictures of the frames up against a light source and then I brought them into the computer. I had to play with extreme curves and I have an idea what this film was used for and as far as subject matter and intent; I was more than likely drinking that night and it may also be very possible that my exposures may have also been on the underexposed side.

The side markings on the film are visible but not as strong. So there is slight fog, underdevelopment and maybe underexposure. My guess is that even if I developed this roll back then it may have not been optimal but prints would still have been possible.

I am surprised at one thing. That wasn't me wearing that Dazed and Confused shirt. It was my mother wearing that shirt! I have other older photos of mom so this isn't a total loss but it does suck.

Below is what I am working with. I don't have a film scanner.

 

[koraks]

see if I could pull anything out, if this is still feasible

No, once the film is fixed after bleaching, there's nothing you can do. You really have to skip the initial bleach, then fix, then expose to light and develop again. At that point you can either repeat the whole process, or bleach and fix if you're done.

There doesn't seem to be much on the film; regardless of what you'd do, there's not much to be salvaged there. Bummer.

 

[What About Bob]

I knew this but was still hanging on to some hope, lol. Oh well.

Later on I will develop a new film strip and see where the developer is at. Seeing that I have put it through five rolls all ready I will use a slightly increased time. Not the 5 I was talking about seeing this will be a new film. Well, here I go outside and take some shots of something downstairs, lol.

 

[What About Bob]

I just finished developing the test film shot earlier today. Came out fine!

 

[What About Bob]

Three more rolls to go and my replacement Flinn digital thermometer crapped out on me toward the end so I had to get out the glass. Tomorrow I will head on out to Wally World and see if they have any digital thermometers.

Finished with two rolls and I did the modified development procedure that koraks talked about. I didn't have to use any redevlopment for these rolls so that was the green light to go ahead with the bleach and refix. This way takes a little longer but it is good insurance. Thanks, koraks.

One roll, VPS 160, has my friend's dad and his son when he was a kid! Must have been around 8 years old. He is 37 now. It looks like I am on this roll too! I would be about 21! The second roll, T-Max 400CN, has some pictures of Bird's store in Florence, MA, and it looks like more cat pictures, lol. The strange thing is I kind of recall being there and taking that picture. Strange feeling.

I will develop the last of the rolls as soon as I can. Shopping for a new digital thermometer.