Nudity and the Web - What's Our Responsibility?

[TheFlyingCamera]

this whole thread has been not much more than a mental masturbation exercise for the purpose of making the men who photograph nude women feel better about themselves. Eight pages and nothing said, no real issues addressed.

 

[copake_ham]

.....Eight pages and nothing said, no real issues addressed.

Perhaps because there never was a real issue to address?

 

[Wayne]

What's our responsibility?

To try to change society so that this sort of thing (cries of shock and horror that a woman in her 50s modeled nude in her 20s) doesn't happen.

Cheers,

R.

Good luck in your attempt to liberate women from themselves. I imagine a few would think that men could stand to be liberated of the need to exercise lifetime rights to nude photos taken when the women were much younger.



Wayne

 

[Dinesh]

Perhaps because there never was a real issue to address?

This coming from the author who gave us:

"If this site went away"

"Film choice. Going steady or playing the field?"

and of course, one of my personal favourites:

"Too many cameras. Which would be the first to go?"


Glass houses George, glass houses.

 

[copake_ham]

This coming from the author who gave us:

"If this site went away"

"Film choice. Going steady or playing the field?"

and of course, one of my personal favourites:

"Too many cameras. Which would be the first to go?"


Glass houses George, glass houses.

Ah, but in my feeble defense; did I, in any one of them suggest that photographers had a "responsibility" to society and, more importantly as per the OP, to "THE WEB"?

Read the Thread Header.

<aside>
Yes, I used an EMOTICON - to denote a somewhat bemused and light rejoinder! And for those who disdain the same well you can.... <aside>

 

[Dinesh]

Ah, but in my feeble defense; did I, in any one of them suggest that photographers had a "responsibility" to society and, more importantly as per the OP, to "THE WEB"?

I believe that the OP was asking whether or not photographers had a responsibility to the nude subject, not society in general. If I am wrong in this assumption, I hope that the OP can correct me.

As for the second part of your post, if there is something you are indirectly trying to say, please feel free to PM me and say it directly.

 

[copake_ham]

I believe that the OP was asking whether or not photographers had a responsibility to the nude subject, not society in general. If I am wrong in this assumption, I hope that the OP can correct me.

As for the second part of your post, if there is something you are indirectly trying to say, please feel free to PM me and say it directly.

Geez no, PM too much. Re: emoticons and <> you might check bjorke's earlier post here. But now saying goodbye via Ignore.

Ciao

 

[bill schwab]

Ah, but in my feeble defense; did I, in any one of them suggest that photographers had a "responsibility" to society and, more importantly as per the OP, to "THE WEB"

George,

Try reading next time. It may serve you well.

I , as the OP, have gotten a lot out of this thread. Sorry it has bored you so. I have to ask though... If is such an empty thread, why have you decided to post to it time and again? Just because nothing is being said doesn't mean you have to say something.

Bill

 

[gr82bart]

But now saying goodbye via Ignore.

Drats! I was hoping for a double feature.

Regards, Art.

 

[Dinesh]

Drats! I was hoping for a double feature.

Regards, Art.

Sorry Art, I tried my best.

 

[Early Riser]

You'd think Bob Shell might have something to say about shooting nude women.

In a previous post I said that I don't shoot nudes because it's a hassle but that's only one reason. The other is that it seemed seedy to me in most cases and that I did not want to be categorized as a nude photographer. I have been at shoots of nude women, and have done them professionally, and know that they can be done with respect for the model and with integrity. However I also have seen the feeding frenzy at photo equipment shows where they have some model on seamless and a horde of middle aged amateurs with flash on cameras swarm the poor girl. A sight I consider disturbing.

 

[Roger Hicks]

In a previous post I said that I don't shoot nudes because it's a hassle but that's only one reason. The other is that it seemed seedy to me in most cases and that I did not want to be categorized as a nude photographer. I have been at shoots of nude women, and have done them professionally, and know that they can be done with respect for the model and with integrity. However I also have seen the feeding frenzy at photo equipment shows where they have some model on seamless and a horde of middle aged amateurs with flash on cameras swarm the poor girl. A sight I consider disturbing.

I'll second every word of that, except perhaps that I'd substitute 'sad' for 'disturbing'.

Cheers,

R.

 

[jstraw]

You'd think Bob Shell might have something to say about shooting nude women.

In a previous post I said that I don't shoot nudes because it's a hassle but that's only one reason. The other is that it seemed seedy to me in most cases and that I did not want to be categorized as a nude photographer. I have been at shoots of nude women, and have done them professionally, and know that they can be done with respect for the model and with integrity. However I also have seen the feeding frenzy at photo equipment shows where they have some model on seamless and a horde of middle aged amateurs with flash on cameras swarm the poor girl. A sight I consider disturbing.

I'd be more interested in photographing the swarming of the model than the model.

 

[copake_ham]

George,

Try reading next time. It may serve you well.

I , as the OP, have gotten a lot out of this thread. Sorry it has bored you so. I have to ask though... If is such an empty thread, why have you decided to post to it time and again? Just because nothing is being said doesn't mean you have to say something.

Bill

Bill,

At your suggestion, I re-read your OP. I noted particularly the penultimate paragraph which seems to suggest that the presence of the Internet today (unlike thirty years ago when you shot the nude photos) has changed the situation such that photographer's have a greater responsibility.

I cannot buy into that for the very reason you cite - which is that the model signed a release. As a society, under the law, we protect "minors" such that no one under the age of eighteen can enter into a valid and binding contract. But at a certain point, society recognizes that an individual has matured sufficiently to take personal control of her life.

Now perhaps you think the age of eighteen is too young. Others might agree or disagree and prefer twenty-one or sixteen. Obviously the need for an arbitrary standard requires a compromise such as we've arrived at.

From my perspective, once a person has achieved legal "majority" and is considered competent to legally contract - then the matter is settled.

Haven't we all done things when we were younger that we now regret? But does that mean that others therefore owed us some duty or obligation to protect us from ourselves? Hell, when we did the very things that we now regret - the last thing we were interested in was having some "elder" admonish us not to do it!


At the age of eighteen we are quite willing to allow young men and women to enlist in the military and we often then send them off to war. We consider that "normal" even if it puts them in extreme harm's way. So, in that context, the idea that a photographer has some "extra duty" to "protect" an eighteen year old woman who wants to make a few bucks taking her clothes off is a non-starter to me. It is her decision, and I respect her right to make it.

So, yes, in reality, I think this thread has been much ado about little.

 

[jovo]

Bill,


Now perhaps you think the age of eighteen is too young. Others might agree or disagree and prefer twenty-one or sixteen. Obviously the need for an arbitrary standard requires a compromise such as we've arrived at.

From my perspective, once a person has achieved legal "majority" and is considered competent to legally contract - then the matter is settled.

Haven't we all done things when we were younger that we now regret? But does that mean that others therefore owed us some duty or obligation to protect us from ourselves? Hell, when we did the very things that we now regret - the last thing we were interested in was having some "elder" admonish us not to do it!

Apparently the maturation of the frontal lobe that plays a significant part in what we consider to be good judgement does not occur until one's early to mid twenties. To be cynical about it, it's probably for that reaason that so many 18 year olds have been so willing to enlist in military enterprises that they might not even consider for a minute were they five years or more older. As a parent, it's one of the greatest fears of raising kids that they have to live through their adolescence that comes complete with an unassailable notion of their own immortality .

As I wrote before, it's not a photographer's actual responsibility to regulate the decision making process of young men or women, but it might not hurt to try. Aren't nude models in their 30's attractive enough?

 

[bill schwab]

"extra duty"..."protect"

Are you quoting me George? I don't think so. I didn't say any of the things you have incorrectly put into quotes.

I put something out there for discussion, something that means something to me and apparently others considering the length of this thread. Again, I have gotten something from it and that is what matters to me.

I'd add more, but I have just arrived in NY for some business and have a tight schedule. Thanks for your participation.

Bill

 

[TheFlyingCamera]

Apparently the maturation of the frontal lobe that plays a significant part in what we consider to be good judgement does not occur until one's early to mid twenties. To be cynical about it, it's probably for that reaason that so many 18 year olds have been so willing to enlist in military enterprises that they might not even consider for a minute were they five years or more older. As a parent, it's one of the greatest fears of raising kids that they have to live through their adolescence that comes complete with an unassailable notion of their own immortality .

As I wrote before, it's not a photographer's actual responsibility to regulate the decision making process of young men or women, but it might not hurt to try. Aren't nude models in their 30's attractive enough?

I've photographed a number of models in their 40s. Age has little to do with either attractiveness or success as a model. The very best that any of us can do when photographing someone is to be as clear as possible on our intentions for the images, and where we think we might use them in the future. Good communication with your models is the best way to prevent issues.

 

[Ian Leake]

The very best that any of us can do when photographing someone is to be as clear as possible on our intentions for the images, and where we think we might use them in the future.

...and treat them with respect before, during and after the shoot whether they're young or old, female or male, clother or unclothed. (I too find the group "feeding frenzy" to be repugnant.)

 

[copake_ham]

Are you quoting me George? I don't think so. I didn't say any of the things you have incorrectly put into quotes.

I put something out there for discussion, something that means something to me and apparently others considering the length of this thread. Again, I have gotten something from it and that is what matters to me.

I'd add more, but I have just arrived in NY for some business and have a tight schedule. Thanks for your participation.

Bill

Bill,

No I was not quoting you directly. The quotation marks were simply for emphasis.

I have no problem with any individual photographer adopting as a personal standard an age of consent that is higher than the legal minimum. But I do not consider the photographer who accepts the legal age of consent as the sole age determinant to be unethical by doing so.

Enjoy your visit to NY - are you here for just the day or is it a longer stay?

 

[haris]

What's our responsibility?

To try to change society so that this sort of thing (cries of shock and horror that a woman in her 50s modeled nude in her 20s) doesn't happen.

Cheers,

R.

Roger, another issue I agree with you, but if only things are so easy:

Father: "My doughter is not whore, she will not pose for nude photographs, males will not look at her and have dity thoughts about her. But, her friend, she is such a hottie, and doughter is not bat too... .. Dirty, dirty old man, I have to hide all those pictures I made 30 years ago... Hey doughter, you are not allowed to go out for month!!!!!"

Mother: "What does she think, I had body like hers in hers age, she will not have nude photographs of her and make me jealous because I am old now and not have such body. Yes, I did that in hers ages, but now I am older and wiser, if only I knew then... Hey, doughter, you are not allowed to go out for month!!!!!"

Father and Mother: "We have to be carefull what our doughter do, it is dangerous world out there, honey, only look at all those dirty men with camera!"

And father and mother plane to vote on next ellections and to write/speak to theire local politicians to chose for whom they will woteor thinking what TV station/magazine/theater play/gallery exshibition/etc... will see/read. And very important question for father and mother is moral values of politicians/TV/magazine/etc...

Add to that religion(s) and theire interests (control) in all of that.

That is about how things starts...

P. S. Why album The Wall from Pink Floyd crossing my mind...

 

[cowanw]

Art! (I seem to put exclamation marks after your name, don't I?) I just realized you're up the road in CT. Can I borrow *****, please? Sanders

I have been sitting on this for a few days now and feel I have to respond. I have had the privilege of working with this model at our local college during photography courses.I know that she does not need me to defend her but she is unlikely to be a member of this on line community. And yet there is now a thread on the WORLD wide web suggesting that she is for trade if one is in Toronto. In defense, everyone who is a regular reader of APUG knows you are a opposed to objectifying people and married to a prominent nude model. Unfortunately the billions of people who might google this name to check her out as a model might come away with quite a different idea. Nude models are exposed enough to possibly awkward situations.
Censorship aside; political correctness aside: freedom of speech aside; it is simply no longer acceptable to joke about borrowing women.
Regards
Bill

 

[Rolleiflexible]

Bill: There is no way any rational person could read the remark and conclude that Kinga is a chattel available for trade, sale or barter. The slave trade was ended 150 years ago in North America. I am confident that anyone who reads well enough to navigate the web will appreciate the remark for what it was, even if you did not.

Sanders

 

[Roger Hicks]

Dear Haris,

A wonderful analysis...

Cheers,

R.

 

[haris]

Dear R.

Thanks.

H.