Note From HARMAN technology Limited : Re Price Increases

Bob, I agree with supporting local suppliers, but not at any price. Paying triple the cost on 3 out of 4 items (see post 114) simply does not make sense to me. For the reasons you mentioned, maybe it does to you.

Bob, you are a local business so of course you support other local businesses. As a business however you can pass on your costs until your price is too high and people get their prints done elsewhere.

Going to digital because film is expensive? I do shoot digital but I'd rather shoot film for most things and if I can shoot and print 50% more because I buy from south of the border then I may just have to do that. I could shoot more film if I didn't print it, paper is the most expensive thing really. I can spend more getting a print just the way I want, going through a few sheets of paper which cost more than the film I shot it on; but I love to make prints so I'd rather not go purely hybrid. Digital printing is more expensive, a real ripoff, and less satisfactory to me.

I want to support local businesses. But at 2x the price for exactly the same thing? ... not so much.

Dear All,

Some talk about 'special makes' etc etc : I will explain.

We at HARMAN have various product routes, you have to when you have about 2,500 items in your range :

Stock : Obvious, in stock at the factory at all times:

Usually In Stock : The second tier of products in terms of volume of sales, we usually have no MOQ ( minimum order quantity ) if not in stock, usually made within 3 to 5 days.

None Stock : When a distributor orders the product its made, the parent rolls are always in stock for all
our products so its usually a finishing ( or confectioning ) demand, normally done in 3 to 5 working days.

None Stock MOQ : We will sometimes only make a None Stock item against an MOQ ( minimum order quantity ) if has to be ordered in a certain defined quantity that varies depending on the actual product item, whereas None Stock we ( usually ) make more than the actul order received to gain manufacturing efficiencies and then put the balance in stock ( hence usually in stock ) as we will know from demand monitors it will be sold on within 60 days.

Special Items : We already make certain 'special items' for customers these are all make special and have various lead times usually based on packaging requirements.

NEW Special Items : We may be asked for a product by a distributor usually from an end user enquiry, this may well be where we have a product in the parent roll but we have never before made the item requested, for example say a roll of HP5+ 1m by 5m long... this then has to enter a process

1 ) Can we do it ? 2) Do we have, or can we obtain packaging ? 3) what price will it be? 4) How many do we have to make ? 5) Will it ever be made again ? 6 ) Total square metres and then finally the QC implications and QC cost

If this viable for us and the customer accepts the cost we then go ahead, raise an item and produce the required plan, this is the entire manufacturing process written up so as the product is manufactured properly and in accordance with our ISO certification and our own QC regime. We are a incredibly flexible manufacturer with a well developed system to deal with some low volume but repeat orders, although it is highly unlikely a new item would be viable ( at a reasonable cost ) with less than a 300 m2 order.

You can see the 'status' of all our products on our PAL ( product availability list on our website )

The ULF or special size annual make is a kind of a mix :

We obtain the orders in advance and so we have no stock liability issue :

We make a special finishing plan usually over 10 days where all the orders are manufactured in turn from the biggest size to the smallest and we accept even an order for one box of one size of one product, even 10 boxes of one item usually would never, ever be viable to do, as the set up regime and QC rigours will take in excess of one hour to set up before making each item and then further time entering onto our systems afterwards, But we do it as a 'service' to our customers once a year and thereby reduce the 'total' cost ( especially cut waste ) to ourselves by doing it all in a defined period where we know the that 'additional costs' are constrained in that period only, once per year.

I hope that helps.

Simon. ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

rst said:

I am also in Germany and when I shop for Ilford papers I order it from Silverprint in England. The shipping is much higher than shipping within Germany, but compared to prices in Germany, the savings for one 50 sheets box of Multigrade Warmtone 9.5x12 already cover more than the shipping costs and then I add more ...

And Silverprint has fast delivery and good service.

Cheers
Ruediger

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This is bizarre. I order my product stock from the US or Germany as the costs inclusive of freight far out weigh just freight costs alone I have been given from the UK. Yet Ruediger you have to buy your stock from the UK. This does not make sence.

My last attempt at getting a pack of 10 sheets 8 x10 Of the direct positive paper out of the UK floored me £42 for standard Royal Mail dispatch. Does any one know if this paper can be purchased directly from the US or Germany?

I think my point is if your passion is photography printmaking, these increases are part of life, expected and we get over it.
We actually encourage certain clients to go elsewhere if they think our print prices are to steep, as we are not embarrassed charging what we do.
I am not really following your logic in the last paragraph ,
Because you buy from US vendors you can shoot 50% more??
I feel some of the best photographic prints these days are done hybrid, without a
doubt, others differ , I assume you would be one.
I can't argue your feelings about digital being a ripoff , there must be reasons you think so?

Though I run a business , I also am a photographer/printmaker preparing for a show in Contact in four months, I bought all my film Hundreds of Rolls from Eight Elm, as well all my proof 11x14 paper from Eight Elm , and all my mural paper from the Distributer. I feel it is important to keep local Canadians employed therefore I spend my dollars here. I do not think for a moment I would be better served by a US vendor.
Alt Printing well thats another thing, it seems I will have to buy from our southern cousins, as I have not been able to find a Canadian vendor who can handle my needs for Alt. Yet.

hpulley said:

Bob, you are a local business so of course you support other local businesses. As a business however you can pass on your costs until your price is too high and people get their prints done elsewhere.

Going to digital because film is expensive? I do shoot digital but I'd rather shoot film for most things and if I can shoot and print 50% more because I buy from south of the border then I may just have to do that. I could shoot more film if I didn't print it, paper is the most expensive thing really. I can spend more getting a print just the way I want, going through a few sheets of paper which cost more than the film I shot it on; but I love to make prints so I'd rather not go purely hybrid. Digital printing is more expensive, a real ripoff, and less satisfactory to me.

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Bob, I don't think its fair to compare your business with selling materials. After all a box of paper is a box of paper. The same cannot be said of a fine art print.

I think my point is if your passion is photography printmaking, these increases are part of life, expected and we get over it.

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Increases are expected. But paying a significant premium for buying within Canada? Mail ordering from Toronto, for me, is the same more or less as ordering from the US. Ok, I have to wait a couple more days, but its not like that really matters.

Bob Carnie said:

I think my point is if your passion is photography printmaking, these increases are part of life, expected and we get over it.

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I disagree. Increases of this size are not part of life or expected.

Bob Carnie said:

...
I am not really following your logic in the last paragraph ,
Because you buy from US vendors you can shoot 50% more??

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The costs in Canada are 40-50% higher so this means for the same amount of money I can buy 40-50% more stuff from the US. I don't know what more there is to understand there. I can buy 50% more paper or film. Or I can buy the same amount and have more money for gas and travel money to go to interesting places rather than take pictures just in my home town.

Bob Carnie said:

I feel some of the best photographic prints these days are done hybrid, without a
doubt, others differ , I assume you would be one.

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This is my personal feeling. I haven't been able to make hybrid prints as good as the prints I make with an enlarger in the darkroom. Perhaps I'm using the wrong lab but I've also been quite dissatisfied with the hybrid lab prints I've had made and paid what I think of as a lot of money for. When I'm paying $20-40/print I expect a lot it seems and I can do a better job myself at home for much less money.

Bob Carnie said:

I can't argue your feelings about digital being a ripoff , there must be reasons you think so?

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The cost of digital ink and paper that has no silver in it is way out of line. Printer ink dye is more expensive than silver, perhaps than gold or platinum if you work it out. The cost per page is outrageous for digital printing.

Bob Carnie said:

Though I run a business , I also am a photographer/printmaker preparing for a show in Contact in four months, I bought all my film Hundreds of Rolls from Eight Elm, as well all my proof 11x14 paper from Eight Elm , and all my mural paper from the Distributer. I feel it is important to keep local Canadians employed therefore I spend my dollars here. I do not think for a moment I would be better served by a US vendor.
...

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Well, you could have saved hundreds of dollars then.

It's your money but if people want to throw it away I'd rather that Harman made a donation paypal address so I could send them the extra money instead of paying it to distributors and other middle men who are making money off me for nothing just because we live in Canada or Europe. There is no reason why it should be cheaper in the USA, none at all. I think we'd all be shocked to hear how little money from the retail price actually makes it to Harman/Ilford.

I love the results with their stuff so I'm not switching though I may experiment a little more with T-Max film than I have in the past, the long fix times and pink dye is off putting, Delta is much simpler to deal with. I just hope I don't have to cut down, saying "well, this print is almost perfect, not quite the fine art print I wanted but I really shouldn't make another print or two to see if I an improve it." I'd hate to settle for less than the best shots that I can take and the best prints that I can make because of cost.

Perhaps I'll print 5x7 instead of 11x14... don't laugh, I enjoyed making a bunch of 5x7 and 8x10 yesterday where I would normally have used 11x14. With a big matt and frame it looks almost the same right

Oh and I agree with dfoo: I can get stuff shipped from Toronto or NY, same time and same price. Really! Expresspost or Purolator ground take 1-3 days here from either location but about the same cost. The only real difference is that the film and paper is 40-50% more up here and they have less in stock here too.

As many of us have stated, the prices for Ilford products in Canada appear to be quite high as comparied to the prices that many of us pay in the USA. Regarding the Ilford price increases: I have called one of the sources from which I purchase some Ilford products, and I was told that the prices to ME have increased about 5% give and take a bit. So, why have the prices increased so drastically in Canada?

I am curious: Is there a Customs charge for photographic films and papers that are sent from the USA to Canadian customers?

Other than HST and brokerage fees, no.

Keep on Trucking, I not into arguing with you.

hpulley said:

I disagree. Increases of this size are not part of life or expected.



The costs in Canada are 40-50% higher so this means for the same amount of money I can buy 40-50% more stuff from the US. I don't know what more there is to understand there. I can buy 50% more paper or film. Or I can buy the same amount and have more money for gas and travel money to go to interesting places rather than take pictures just in my home town.



This is my personal feeling. I haven't been able to make hybrid prints as good as the prints I make with an enlarger in the darkroom. Perhaps I'm using the wrong lab but I've also been quite dissatisfied with the hybrid lab prints I've had made and paid what I think of as a lot of money for. When I'm paying $20-40/print I expect a lot it seems and I can do a better job myself at home for much less money.



The cost of digital ink and paper that has no silver in it is way out of line. Printer ink dye is more expensive than silver, perhaps than gold or platinum if you work it out. The cost per page is outrageous for digital printing.



Well, you could have saved hundreds of dollars then.

It's your money but if people want to throw it away I'd rather that Harman made a donation paypal address so I could send them the extra money instead of paying it to distributors and other middle men who are making money off me for nothing just because we live in Canada or Europe. There is no reason why it should be cheaper in the USA, none at all. I think we'd all be shocked to hear how little money from the retail price actually makes it to Harman/Ilford.

I love the results with their stuff so I'm not switching though I may experiment a little more with T-Max film than I have in the past, the long fix times and pink dye is off putting, Delta is much simpler to deal with. I just hope I don't have to cut down, saying "well, this print is almost perfect, not quite the fine art print I wanted but I really shouldn't make another print or two to see if I an improve it." I'd hate to settle for less than the best shots that I can take and the best prints that I can make because of cost.

Perhaps I'll print 5x7 instead of 11x14... don't laugh, I enjoyed making a bunch of 5x7 and 8x10 yesterday where I would normally have used 11x14. With a big matt and frame it looks almost the same right

Oh and I agree with dfoo: I can get stuff shipped from Toronto or NY, same time and same price. Really! Expresspost or Purolator ground take 1-3 days here from either location but about the same cost. The only real difference is that the film and paper is 40-50% more up here and they have less in stock here too.

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The Canadian market is 1/10 the size of the US market, so I would expect that there would be some economies of scale enjoyed by the US distributor that aren't shared by the Canadian distributor. So it doesn't surprise me that prices would be a little bit higher.

And I think that in general the within country shipping in the US is cheaper than the within country shipping here, so I think that that increases the difference in prices too.

And I don't think there is any retailer in Canada with anything approaching the clout (buying and selling) of B & H or Adorama or Freestyle, so I think that affects it as well.

But the magnitude of the difference still surprises me.

Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if Amplis the Cdn distributor buys less product than any one of the three US retailers you mentioned.

I think as well, we have to remember that only several years ago there was significant difference between the two dollars. When the Canadian dollar began to rise, Canadian companies saw it as an opportunity to increase profitability as well as compensate for several price hikes they had previously absorbed. One only need to look to the printed price of books and magazines to see this continuing where books/magazines (published recently) still reflect a 20-40% price difference between Canada and the USA, even when they are "identical"; Sports Illustrated, The Economist and B+W all come to mind. This mindset ignores on-line shopping where it assumes a consumer is either unaware of price differences between regions or assumes the perceived difficulty in acquiring goods will be outweighed by the convenience of purchasing locally. Given that most stores are now needing to compete nationally and often internationally, stores are going to have difficulties in maintaining these practices.

Bob, I think your points are very valid. However, you live in a major urban center where there is plenty of stores to choose from and from which you can expect service. Undoubtedly you have several retail outlets you will not support because they are unwilling to provide for your needs in the manner expected. Located in a much smaller venue with a single store to supply, there is no competition for my business and thus my local store feels not the need to try harder. As well, I don't doubt you have a close relationship with your supplier and often pay closer to wholesale than retail; this decreases the motivation to rely on an international supply chain since there is not as large a gap between your price and other potential suppliers prices.

As I said earlier, my local camera store is not interested in being my local camera store. As such, I feel no qualms about finding another store which will cater to my needs, even if that store happens to be located in another province or country.

Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if Amplis the Cdn distributor buys less product than any one of the three US retailers you mentioned.

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I wouldn't be surprised if this was due to the high prices. Many savvy buyers simply purchase the goods elsewhere.

dfoo said:

I wouldn't be surprised if this was due to the high prices. Many savvy buyers simply purchase the goods elsewhere.

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That's the case here in turkey particularly for LF films.

When i moved here 4 years ago I went to the main pro-dealer in Izmir, they could get me film, but if they ordered Delta 100 the importer would supply FP4, and it wouldn't be cheap. There's a 30% Import duty on all goods.

In fact they said all the LF users they knew (about 20) were buying from the US/UK/EU by mail order.

Bob's right in saying try to support your local (national) suppliers, but if the % difference is significant then you have to be pragmatic.

I did buy my last & now finished stock of Ilford HP5 LF film from a store in Istanbul (November 2010), the only one to stock LF films, it was 6 months past the expiry date . . . . . . it wasn't much more tahn |Uk prices because it was OLD stock. The Forte Polywarmtone papers they have in stock are useless according to other APUGer's in Turkey.

It's not easy to keep using film and print conventionally any longer. It's time manufacturers began embracing new approaches to marketing, Lomography & the Impossible Project are streets ahead.

Ian

Thanks for the transparency Simon, I wish Kodak and Fuji followed your example in engaging their customers like you do.

Uncle Bill said:

Thanks for the transparency Simon, I wish Kodak and Fuji followed your example in engaging their customers like you do.

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Ditto

Martin

Uncle Bill said:

Thanks for the transparency Simon, I wish Kodak and Fuji followed your example in engaging their customers like you do.

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I can't even figure out if Fuji is still offering Acros in 4x5, so I ordered HP5+ instead. Let's support someone who supports us.

Ordered Pearl Postcard, 5x7 and 11x14 warmtone semi-matt fiber and 5x7 and 11x14 matt fiber and some Delta 3200, the most expensive stuff where I expect the highest increases. Hopefully it will last me a while before I have to buy at the new prices! The slower film speeds I have a bunch and when that runs out I'll just have to bite the bullet and buy more, can't afford to fill a chest freezer right now.

All things considered for those of us into analog photography for love, it's still cheaper than buying, restoring and running a vintage Porsche.

I just buyed 3 boxes of 8x10 Ilford Delta 100 and one 100 p 4x5 and 2 boxes direct paper thats my answer to f..... Kodak with 10 sheet boxes!!!!!

Cheers Armin

Just walked into Freestyle after work and bought 30 rolls of Arista Premium 400 (Tri-X) 36-exp. and 20 rolls of Legacy Pro 100 (Acros) 36-exp. My total: $110 and change. That is insane pricing for some of the best b/w films ever made. There was no Ilford alternative even remotely close, or I would have bought it instead. I know I am just one person and that my monetary support means little, but for the time being, Ilford is losing my money by being too expensive in relation to comparable (if not superior) products.

2F/2F said:

There was no Ilford alternative even remotely close, or I would have bought it instead. I know I am just one person and that my monetary support means little, but for the time being, Ilford is losing my money by being too expensive in relation to comparable (if not superior) products.

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We all do what we have to do. Absolutely no criticism of that imperative at all from me.

However, I tend to do the opposite. I will purchase Ilford even at a premium over the other less-expensive sheep's clothing alternatives. I feel pretty strongly it is imperative that the companies - and products - with the best chance of long-term survival must indeed survive.

Niche markets are by their vary nature symbiotic. If I inadvertently contribute to the demise of the strongest players, I hurt only myself.

(I do also realize there is a huge "YMMV" associated with these choices.)

Ken

My paper and 3200 and a few other things came today. Ordered on the 19th, here on the 21st with Purolator Ground shipping, very pleased as always. Hopefully the paper will last me a while.