Note From HARMAN technology Limited : Re Price Increases

[Sal Santamaura]

...Delta 100 is my film of choice but isn't available in the 4x10 size and Delta isn't part of the ULF special run, but Ilford agreed to make a special run of my favourite film in this custom size outside of the annual run. I had to order a fair bit...

How much is "a fair bit?" Several years ago I asked Simon to make Delta 100 available in whole plate as part of the annual special run, but he said the HARMAN board declined. Can you simply place a minimum order as a dealer and get the product? If so, how many boxes would be required?

Thanks in advance.

 

[hpulley]

After saying I won't buy more Delta 3200 I shot some more a couple days ago and souped it this morning in DD-X after doing proper clip tests (and getting some tech. support from Harman) to find the d-max I was looking for in this developer and I must say I love the stuff so as long as I can afford it I will continue to shoot it. For birds with telephoto lenses there really is nothing like it for me, interior candids too.

 

[Rob Skeoch]

Mabman. For the most part the costs are going up about 20%. It's easier to figure out the Kentmere change because it's equal across the line-up. The Ilford prices are not equal and for the most part seem to run about 20% on films such as HP5 rolls. Some items I will be marking up about 10%. These are usually larger sizes of common items. A good example would be 16x20 paper in 50 sheets. I few items that no-one buys or stocks will be going up more than 20% but it shouldn't affect most people.

For the most part consider a price change in the 20% range.

 

[hpulley]

Mabman. For the most part the costs are going up about 20%. It's easier to figure out the Kentmere change because it's equal across the line-up. The Ilford prices are not equal and for the most part seem to run about 20% on films such as HP5 rolls. Some items I will be marking up about 10%. These are usually larger sizes of common items. A good example would be 16x20 paper in 50 sheets. I few items that no-one buys or stocks will be going up more than 20% but it shouldn't affect most people.

For the most part consider a price change in the 20% range.

Any idea why it is still so much more expensive than prices at B&H in NY? Just a few hours and 2 days ground shipping away but it is so much cheaper? I'd love to buy in Canada but with the price difference and the dollar on par it is tough to justify. I assume the price is simply due to a smaller market and/or different distributor or perhaps the perception that Canadians have higher buying power. I don't know but with price comparison so easy these days, it is difficult as I say to keep the dollars up here.

 

[Rob Skeoch]

Sal, Interesting question about the Delta 100 order. A few months back I gave Richard a part box of Delta 100 to cut down and use on his WP camera. He liked the product so I asked Ilford about getting a few boxes made up. They were willing to do it but the cost was just lightly higher than the price of a box of 8x10. Also we needed an order of about 20 boxes, although I can't recall for sure and it might have been higher. Since Richard had ordered 12 boxes of Whole Plate in the summer from the ULF run, he decided it was time to shoot the film he had first, and would consider the Delta 100 another day.
With my personal order of Delta 100 in 4x10... it was a few weeks ago that I placed the order, I didn't worry about the cost because I wanted the film, nor do I remember the cost, but it will turn up on the invoice one day. I think I had to order 20 boxes, but it might have been 16.... again I can't remember and didn't write it down.
This is the first time I've done a custom run of Delta 100 and will let you know how it works out. It's possible that 4x10 is easier to make a custom run because they already make the film in 4x5.
I did have a custom run of HP5 last year. A customer missed the ULF annual order, because he was waiting for grant money to come through. When the money came through he order his 8x20 film. I think we needed to order 22 boxes which was fine. He needed 15 and a couple other clients grabbed the rest.

Hope this is helpful. You can always call me if I've confused you more that helped you.

-Rob

 

[Rob Skeoch]

hpulley: I'm not sure why we pay more. When I talk to other retailers in the USA, they talk about margins we would never get in Canada yet the product is often less. Maybe some of the larger retailers are importing the product from companies they own in other parts of the world. Although I don't know for sure. There are lots of products I can buy cheaper retail than I can get wholesale from the distributor. Rodenstock lenses would be great example.
-Rob

 

[hpulley]

I really want to know, why is film and paper 40-50% more here?

 

[hpulley]

Most cars are too so it isn't just film but the with Canadian dollar at $1.01 USD it boggles my mind. They don't think we can check prices or something. I don't even have to drive to NY or call them anymore, one click and I have price lists. They must think us all daft or lazy.

 

[Kevin Kehler]

I really want to know, why is film and paper 40-50% more here?

If your company makes $100 million profit one year, you ask for a raise. If your company loses $100 million, you don't ask for a pay decrease. If people are willing to pay $120 a box of paper because of when the dollar was $.65, why should you decrease the price when the dollar is $1.01? If you sell widgets for $5 and your cost is $3 (assuming your market is willing to pay $5), if you find a new supplier at $2, would you reduce your price by $1 or take the money?

 

[Ian Grant]

I really want to know, why is film and paper 40-50% more here?

It's a similar situation in the UK/EU etc.

General business operating costs are lower in the US, energy (Petrol & electricity), rents, taxes etc, they all have a knock on effect.

Ian

 

[Kevin Kehler]

General business operating costs are lower in the US, energy (Petrol & electricity), rents, taxes etc, they all have a knock on effect.

Ian

I have a friend in Thailand who went to the camera store one block away from the Nikon lens factory; prices are cheaper in Canada than they were there.

 

[hpulley]

If your company makes $100 million profit one year, you ask for a raise. If your company loses $100 million, you don't ask for a pay decrease. If people are willing to pay $120 a box of paper because of when the dollar was $.65, why should you decrease the price when the dollar is $1.01? If you sell widgets for $5 and your cost is $3 (assuming your market is willing to pay $5), if you find a new supplier at $2, would you reduce your price by $1 or take the money?

Yes, I understand all that and also understand that prices are complex, not just a bill of materials and a profit margin but then to pass on most of a 20-30% increase on top what is already 40-50% higher just looks bad to me. When the price stays the same even though the dollar goes up people may not notice but when the prices rise it becomes obvious and people will start to look elsewhere, see if it is cheaper to ship it and it is.

I'm glad to read that some things will only go up by 10%, Rob. I will compare prices again once the dust settles but for now all Canadian retailers just look really, really expensive.

 

[hpulley]

I have a friend in Thailand who went to the camera store one block away from the Nikon lens factory; prices are cheaper in Canada than they were there.

That's true. I went to Japan hoping to get some deals on Canon and Nikon but as with Thailand the prices are more expensive in Japan than at Best Buy here which is just crazy but the yen is insane, fuel is expensive there. I know the world is not a simple place but here, next door to the cheapest place in the world to buy this stuff it is hard not to notice.

 

[johnnywalker]

The only thing that helps even out the Canada / US prices is the exhorbitant shipping and handling fees some US retailers charge. A handling fee plus marking up the USPS cost seems unreasonable to me.

I recently checked some prices on 4 "raw" chemicals with a Canadian and US supplier. Three of the four items were three times as expensive in Canada. The fourth was 30 per cent cheaper in Canada. Hard to justify shopping Canadian in this case.

 

[hpulley]

Agreed, many places only offer expensive courier shipping but if you can get USPS or ground shipping it can quickly become cheaper.

 

[Sal Santamaura]

... A few months back I gave Richard a part box of Delta 100 to cut down and use on his WP camera. He liked the product so I asked Ilford about getting a few boxes made up. They were willing to do it but the cost was just lightly higher than the price of a box of 8x10. Also we needed an order of about 20 boxes, although I can't recall for sure and it might have been higher...With my personal order of Delta 100 in 4x10...I think I had to order 20 boxes, but it might have been 16.... again I can't remember and didn't write it down.
This is the first time I've done a custom run of Delta 100 and will let you know how it works out. It's possible that 4x10 is easier to make a custom run because they already make the film in 4x5...Hope this is helpful. You can always call me if I've confused you more that helped you.

Thanks -- most helpful and not confusing at all.

I'm wondering whether the WP being slightly more expensive than 8x10 was because this is your Canadian distributor manually cutting down the film themselves. Or do you know for certain that the factory would have prepared those packages? If memory serves, Simon stated when we started the annual runs that Ilford needs to prepare a cutting mask for each new size. I don't know whether those masks include the notch codes; if so, then the cost of a cutting mask might also account for the higher-than-8x10 price. In any case, 20 boxes is a very reasonable minimum for such service. Just Richard and I should be able to reach that number, while there might others interested too.

Making your 4x10 would be no more or less difficult than Richard's WP. Delta 100 sheets are all coated on the same thick polyester master rolls; only how they're cut down in the finishing room differs.

Thanks again, and please keep us updated as you see how it works out.

 

[Marco B]

If your company makes $100 million profit one year, you ask for a raise. If your company loses $100 million, you don't ask for a pay decrease. If people are willing to pay $120 a box of paper because of when the dollar was $.65, why should you decrease the price when the dollar is $1.01? If you sell widgets for $5 and your cost is $3 (assuming your market is willing to pay $5), if you find a new supplier at $2, would you reduce your price by $1 or take the money?

The problem is, there basically IS no "new supplier" in this market any more. Yes, we still have some choice in manufacturers, but some products are unique to one, and each has its own characteristics. They aren't apples and apples...

In addition, this selfish and opportunistic strategy of "taking it all" and "getting rich at the cost of customers and manufacturers", is now becoming a serious and real thread to the survival of the industry.

What is the use of an egoistic short term profit of $1,- this year, if that kills your supplier or demand from consumers, and means $0 dollar from this industry and consumers next year??? :confused:

Yes, I know the world isn't perfect, but this, and the industries state, requires dedicated participants down the whole distribution chain, all of of which are willing to accept reality and take their responsibility and share the pain in keeping things affordable to us, consumers, and thus ultimately the industry alive.

 

[michaelbsc]

Deleted by poster.

 

[johnnywalker]

The invisible hand model doesn't work too well with monopolies, even if they are only monopolies over a part of the supply chain.

 

[michaelbsc]

Deleted by poster.

 

[mikebarger]

Go ahead Michael, say what's on your mind.

 

[dfoo]

All I can say is that it is hard to buy from a Canadian supplier when the goods are so much more expensive. If I buy locally they are either not available at all, or close to 100% more expensive. If I buy from a non-local Canadian source they are 20-50% more expensive. Shipping from the US isn't that much more expensive. In fact, its not really any more expensive although it is quite a bit slower... mostly I guess because of stupid Canadian customs.

 

[Bob Carnie]

As a photographic lab I can buy from the distributer here in Canada, which I do , but I have to say the bulk of my chems, papers , sleeves ect. I buy from Eight Elm Photo Video, I pay the extra because in our line of work having all the small necessities in Town, within minutes saves us shipping, transportation of staff back and forth to get the stuff on hourly rates, I know that when I order my Mike will have the stuff and I do not have to stop printing , for any reason.
This is critical to me as we print 7days a week and anticipating the inventory is hard to do.
Same goes with Nymoc for bulk chemicals, they know my needs and have the stuff always on the shelf. If Rob at Big Cameras was close I would buy from him as well, there is something to be said about supporting retail stores who will make the effort to have stock ready for photographers and printers. The distributers are not close enough to what is needed and may not anticipate my needs, but the small retailer sure does. So I am willing to pay the extra to support the retailers who care about me.

Lots of complaining here about prices, and I guess if you are a casual hobbyist, talking about photography more than actually going out and doing it, I can see how the price increase is painful and to those who find it too expensive to buy a roll of film a week, I would say there is always a digital camera and inkjet printer to save your dough.
For those people where photography is not only a way of supporting ones family, or even a great passion which cannot be put down, these price increases are expected over the years, so we get over it and keep on printing.
Nothing new here, I paid a lot less for paper and chems in 1976, but my day rate matched.
I still think having a golf membership and wearing all those silly golf clothes is way more expensive:munch:

 

[mikebarger]

Bob you post points out a difference in the customer base. A business, like you, has a vested interest in keeping a local vendor operating. As you mention, having a local source can actually save you money even if the prices are higher than online sources.

On the other hand, a hobbyist fitting their passion around a day job, it generally doesn't make much difference if their supplies come from the local vendor or an on-line source. It's a lot easier for the hobbyist to anticipate their inventory needs without the pressure of a deadline or adding to their expense ledger if they have to wait a couple days for delivery.

Since most hobbyist aren't adding income (of any significance) with their hobby, saving money on supplies affords them more opportunities to enjoy their hobby.

Most of the shops my friends and I shop at have either closed, or become more digital/computer shops than camera stores, so we tend to buy on-line since the pricing is generally much lower than local.

I'd certainly buy from offshore vendors if the pricing was such it made sense.

Mike

 

[Bob Carnie]

Hi Mike

You are totally correct, a business is different, but even if I did not make my income from printing, but made my income from other sources, knowing my passion for photography I would not sweat the increase and try to support local retailers.
Yes , I live in a large city and luckily I have Eight Elm and Nymoc to go to , but if I lived in Strathroy Ontario for example, which may not have a retail store stocking the goods , I would be on the horn to Rob at Big Camera and buy from him and support him or go to Blazes Photographic, or once a year drive to TO and buy bulk from Nymoc.
Freestyle and B&H is an option for Canadians, but sometimes the wait , customs, or just bad communication can be painful.

Even as a hobby , I have photographers who go through tons of material, and I would be like them as well.

Bob you post points out a difference in the customer base. A business, like you, has a vested interest in keeping a local vendor operating. As you mention, having a local source can actually save you money even if the prices are higher than online sources.

On the other hand, a hobbyist fitting their passion around a day job, it generally doesn't make much difference if their supplies come from the local vendor or an on-line source. It's a lot easier for the hobbyist to anticipate their inventory needs without the pressure of a deadline or adding to their expense ledger if they have to wait a couple days for delivery.

Since most hobbyist aren't adding income (of any significance) with their hobby, saving money on supplies affords them more opportunities to enjoy their hobby.

Most of the shops my friends and I shop at have either closed, or become more digital/computer shops than camera stores, so we tend to buy on-line since the pricing is generally much lower than local.

I'd certainly buy from offshore vendors if the pricing was such it made sense.

Mike