Note From HARMAN technology Limited : Re Price Increases

hpulley · Jan 13, 2011

Jeff Bannow said:
Or even worse, that bananas have been discontinued.

We're waaaaaay off topic here but with the asexual propagation methods used to farm bananas the most popular varieties are indeed in trouble according to some. They are very susceptible to disease since they are essentially just cuttings off the same plant.

Getting back on topic I too hate it when stores offer to order stuff in for me. Why when I can just order it myself? If they aren't going to stock it then I'm not going to buy it. I still use my local camera stores to buy things when I need them today, which given my ability to plan is still fairly common. Also if I just need a few rolls I don't save money compared to spending even $8-10 on shipping. So the one thing they can do FOR ME TO KEEP MY BUSINESS is keep enough film, paper and chemicals in stock that I can pick some up when I really need some. Of course it costs them money and if I don't buy much then it expires and I come and say, "it's expired, how 'bout $2/roll?" So I guess I'm not very nice...

dfoo · Jan 13, 2011

Don't get me started on the prices at the Canadian retailers. Suffice it to say I order from B&H or Freestyle. Although freestyle irritates me too with their additional handling charges for Canadian orders. Total BS. And the local store is even worse.... Almost $40 for a 5 pack of 120 T-max 400. $17.95 at B&H.

Marco B · Jan 13, 2011

Kevin Kehler said:
I think the issue is my local camera store is no longer "my" camera store. 99% is focused on digital and not significantly different than Best Buy or Future Shop or a thousand other electronic outlets; there is a better tripod and backpack selection but nothing that is really different from a camera selection. For a guy like me who shoots film (primarily 120), their small selection of Kodak bulk and T-Max 35mm is just useless. There is nothing there that I need, so I am not supporting them as they have nothing for me to support! I only stop by to visit a couple friends and check out the used analogue gear.

The one reason why I still DO support my "local" shop (well, not really local, it is a 20 minute train ride in Amsterdam), is that they are exactly the opposite of your 99 out of 100 camera shop experience...

My shop is that rare 1 in 100 exception, like Silverprint in London, that still does care about analog photography. In fact, the shop is stocked from floor to roof with it... Although they do have some digital stuff around, I can happily ignore it and feel at home.

I think their analog to digital conversion hasn't gone past the "1 bit" stage yet

It is the only reason I can put up with current pricing of analog products here in the Netherlands, although as we know by now, this seems to have some more reasons, besides just being a "local shop" versus an internet store.

Lastly a second reason the local shop still has a function, is that I have become a bit addicted to the beauty of big paper sizes and prints. Having 20x24" send by mail from an internet shop (is it even possible at the average internet shops?), is asking for trouble to my feeling, even more so if the stuff needs to be send abroad. But to be honest, I haven't tried it yet. If anyone has experience having ordered such large paper formats abroad, share it here...

Kevin Kehler · Jan 13, 2011

Marco B said:
My shop is that rare 1 in 100 exception, like Silverprint in London, that still does care about analog photography. In fact, the shop is stocked from floor to roof with it... Although they do have some digital stuff around, I can happily ignore it and feel at home.

Beau Photo in Vancouver has the same qualities for me, I would gladly drive the hour to get there. My local store management just doesn't care if I ever make a purchase again, unless it is a new DSLR.

topoxforddoc · Jan 13, 2011

Simon,

Thank you very much for your honesty and timely communication. It is very much appreciated. Your candour contrasts starkly with the obfuscation and deceit that I get from some of my NHS managers. I just wish the NHS was run by people with your sort of integrity.

Best wishes,
Charlie
www.charlie-chan.co.uk

Mahler_one · Jan 13, 2011

Kevin Kehler said:
I don't take it as a criticism at all. I have consistently supported my local store as much as possible, even working there in the past and being the resident "film guy". However, they have already increased their prices for the February increase because I know they do not have the film on-hand and will need to order it. Part of the problem is my local store deals through a third-party which increases costs. However, my order from B&H today was $124 and will be here in 6-10 business days; I called a friend who still works at the store and he quoted me $176 in 3-4 weeks because there is none currently in stock. And it is not a case of being sold out, none has been ordered in the last month. Also given the near parity of the US and Canadian dollars, some of the price differences are ridiculous; $129 for a 100 pack of Ilford FB paper in Canada, $78 being the average price in the US.

Alas, I will have to continue to deal with my local store for some products (liquids being impossible to ship out of the US) but will start looking elsewhere for my other supplies. I would use Freestyle (an APUG supporter) but they need a credit card and I don't use one (PayPal but no credit cards).

Thanks for the interesting reply Kevin. I had no idea of the price differential that you reported. Given such facts, there is indeed no reason to support your local sources!

Kevin Kehler · Jan 13, 2011

Mahler_one said:
Thanks for the interesting reply Kevin. I had no idea of the price differential that you reported. Given such facts, there is indeed no reason to support your local sources!

Here's another interesting one: I ordered some 77mm lens caps from an eBay seller in China right after Christmas which got here yesterday; $5.77 for three caps and they are identical to the generic one's the local store sells. Local store charges $13 a cap but also pays $9 a cap; this to me is bad management, since they should just order the caps out of China. By the way, B&H sells the caps for $5.79 each.

railwayman3 · Jan 13, 2011

Kevin Kehler said:
Here's another interesting one: I ordered some 77mm lens caps from an eBay seller in China right after Christmas which got here yesterday; $5.77 for three caps and they are identical to the generic one's the local store sells. Local store charges $13 a cap but also pays $9 a cap; this to me is bad management, since they should just order the caps out of China.

They don't want the effort of ordering direct from China, while the average customer probably also chooses convenience over price. It's always worth shopping around, and Ebay and the web has given savvy people a lot more opportunities to do this.

Marco B · Jan 13, 2011

Jeff Bannow said:
Kevin Kehler said:

Good analogy: you love your corner fruit stand and want to support him over the big supermarket across town. However, you notice that it is getting harder to buy bananas. When you ask about it, the response is "oranges are the new thing, nobody wants bananas anymore".

Click to expand...

Or even worse, that bananas have been discontinued.

What do you get if you try to convert a banana into an orange?
...
A lot of noise suppressed with a glass of fresh orangejuice!

2F/2F said:
Mahler_one said:

Which Freestyle film is the rebadged Kodak film????

Given the situation at Kodak, will such rebadged film still be available??

Click to expand...

Like all Freestyle films, it will not last forever, but I intend to take advantage while it is here!

Arista Premium 100 is Plus-X and the 400 is Tri-X.

What do you call a rebadged banana?
...
Fair Trade!

mabman · Jan 13, 2011

My favourite local store, Photo Central, is reporting they're seeing a 40-50% price increase from their Canadian distributor for most Ilford products starting in Feb.

It will be interesting to see the price difference with US retailers once the new product filters down - the CDN $ is around par with the US $ now, if the US retailers are getting it for significantly less, it might be worth shopping in the US, even with shipping.

Bit of a moot point for me right now - I've got a bunch of expired film in the freezer, which should last a while

dfoo · Jan 13, 2011

40-50%! If 8x10 paper goes up by 40% that'll be $84 for a box of 100 RC... Or close to $1 a sheet... wow. So was Rob wrong?

Moopheus · Jan 13, 2011

Kevin Kehler said:
Here's another interesting one: I ordered some 77mm lens caps from an eBay seller in China right after Christmas which got here yesterday; $5.77 for three caps and they are identical to the generic one's the local store sells. Local store charges $13 a cap but also pays $9 a cap; this to me is bad management, since they should just order the caps out of China. By the way, B&H sells the caps for $5.79 each.

You assume that the store could get the same export price as the guy selling from Hong Kong. But this is not necessarily the case. The Chinese factory gets an order for, say, 10,000 caps from Acme Cap Company. They charge Acme $3 per cap. They make 15,000 caps. Sell excess to shady Hong Kong guy for 20 cents each. Happens all the time.

Kevin Kehler · Jan 13, 2011

Moopheus said:
You assume that the store could get the same export price as the guy selling from Hong Kong. But this is not necessarily the case. The Chinese factory gets an order for, say, 10,000 caps from Acme Cap Company. They charge Acme $3 per cap. They make 15,000 caps. Sell excess to shady Hong Kong guy for 20 cents each. Happens all the time.

So why can't the store email the shady guy and see how many caps they could get? Buy direct from eBay. We sold 5-6 a month at that price, 7 stores in the chain - 42 a month. Buy 500 and you have almost a year's supply.

Bob Carnie · Jan 13, 2011

This is untrue
film and paper 30% range
other's like chem's no increase
Rob who owns big camera can give a realistic overview of exactly what the Canadian distributer *Amplis* is doing.

mabman said:
My favourite local store, Photo Central, is reporting they're seeing a 40-50% price increase from their Canadian distributor for most Ilford products starting in Feb.

It will be interesting to see the price difference with US retailers once the new product filters down - the CDN $ is around par with the US $ now, if the US retailers are getting it for significantly less, it might be worth shopping in the US, even with shipping.

Bit of a moot point for me right now - I've got a bunch of expired film in the freezer, which should last a while

Klopstock · Jan 13, 2011

dfoo said:
40-50%! If 8x10 paper goes up by 40% that'll be $84 for a box of 100 RC... Or close to $1 a sheet... wow. So was Rob wrong?

My favourite material, Pan F and Multigrade, are already the most expensive film and paper here in Germany. I called some dealers today to see where I can buy some material to fill up my closet.

One of them said "we expect 30% and consider selling different papers".

The next said "We already offer Adox and Foma paper and sell off Ilford merchandise."

And the third said "We will stop selling such paper completely. Nobody will buy at these prices. Did you see our new range of digital cameras and inkjet printers? Come along and have a coffee with us. This is much better, and now digital is much cheaper."

My summary: in a few months from now none of my dealers will sell Ilford products. I can either build up my stocks and look for new dealers in the future. Or I can buy from my dealers, but it will be different products, and it seems that all of them are already cheaper than my long-year favourites before the massive price increase.

Two of the dealers told me they can only order very small amounts at old prices while the new price list is not valid yet, but they can order unlimited amounts at the new, higher prices. That means, I cannot build up my stocks because the dealers cannot get merchandise

Though I am an Ilford customer since the early 1970s this is too much for me, and for the dealers, too.

I am sad to say this price increase looks like self-destruction.

Eric Rose · Jan 13, 2011

mabman said:
My favourite local store, Photo Central, is reporting they're seeing a 40-50% price increase from their Canadian distributor for most Ilford products starting in Feb.

In Canada we have always been boned by the distributors. They add little to no value and take more profit than the retail stores they "support" (not).

Rob Skeoch · Jan 13, 2011

I have the new Canadian Prices from the distributor in front of me. I haven't put them on my website yet, because most items are at the old price still.
But here are some examples of final retail prices....

Delta 100 in 5x7, comes in a box of 100 sheets, current price is $169.40. New price is $186.20. Increase of less than 10%. Plus this film is usually in stock which is better than most stores.

HP5+ 12x20 inches, comes in a box of 25 sheets, current price is $364.41 and is in stock. New price is $399.02. Increase of less than 10%. One of the few stores in the world with stock of this film.

HP5+ Whole Plate, this is a custom size that I carry for a couple guys in the world that shoot it and it's hard to find, but is in stock. Old price is $86.71, new price at the next ULF film run will be $94.95. Increase of less than 10%

I don't know how much the Canadian distributor marks up, or why the prices in Canada are so high, the retailers are not making the huge money on this, at least I'm not. If your store is saying the prices are going up 40%, they just don't want to carry the stuff.

It's like the movie that came out a couple years ago.... he just ain't into you.

Maybe find a retailer that is into traditional photo supplies. If you can't find one, I'd be happy to suggest one.

At while we're at it, a couple weeks ago I bought a new ShenHao 4x10 camera so I can use it for portraits of rodeo cowboys. Delta 100 is my film of choice but isn't available in the 4x10 size and Delta isn't part of the ULF special run, but Ilford agreed to make a special run of my favourite film in this custom size outside of the annual run. I had to order a fair bit but I'm sure other 4x10 photographers around the world will be happy to snap up the boxes that I can spare. Hats off to Ilford I say.

-Rob

Moopheus · Jan 13, 2011

Kevin Kehler said:
So why can't the store email the shady guy and see how many caps they could get? Buy direct from eBay.

I suppose they could. That's how all the cheap/knockoff crap ends up in stalls on Canal Street in New York. But there is a limit. The cheap/knockoff market depends to some extent on the continued existence of the legit/full price market to basically subsidize it. It's something of a parasitic relationship. And of course, the Chinese government does almost nothing to keep it from happening. It's part of the reason I try to avoid buying stuff from China whenever possible.

michaelbsc · Jan 13, 2011

Moopheus said:
...the Chinese government does almost nothing to keep it from happening.

Salvaging scrap and production overruns has been going on for centuries. Why should the Chinese government try to stop it. After all, if you go to a place like Big Lots, you're buying through the same channel.

If you say that a manufacturer must destroy all production overrun, you'll end up putting them out of business.

And the example that someone orders 10K units, so the manufacturer makes 15K units is a bit out of whack. Usually planned over production is around 5% to account for defective units. A really, really good manufacturer can get down to <1%. If the Chinese factory sucks terribly they may overproduce 10%.

dfoo · Jan 13, 2011

Besides, there is nothing illegal or wrong about making generic lens caps. So why should the government stop that?

Moopheus · Jan 13, 2011

michaelbsc said:
If you say that a manufacturer must destroy all production overrun, you'll end up putting them out of business.

It's not normal overproduction, it's deliberately produced for sale. And no, it's not a big deal if it's just generic caps, but when it's dvds and designer handbags and other sorts of licensed products, then yes, it is illegal.

cmacd123 · Jan 13, 2011

Bob Carnie;1121878 Rob who owns big camera can give a realistic overview of exactly what the Canadian distributer *Amplis* is doing.[/QUOTE said:
I wonder if the Canadian Distributor is along for the ride sometimes. There was a guy who tried to run "Ilford Photo canada"website. he just was depending on Amplis to drop ship. I jumped on the chance to order some 9 1/2 by 11 paper. Dribbled in in 2 months. seemed that product was not stocked at the distributor, but was back-ordered to the UK.

The web site is now down, he told me that he gave up with the hastle. Although I think he is still running his one in the states,.

mabman · Jan 13, 2011

Well, now I'm confused... Photo Central has been good to me and other film shooters in Winnipeg and Manitoba in general, and I have a hard time believing they would put the screws to their customers now.

Rob, I take it the prices you've got listed for 35mm and 120 have only small increases as well?

I'll have to ask Photo Central about it next time I'm in...

Marco B · Jan 14, 2011

Klopstock said:
And the third said "We will stop selling such paper completely. Nobody will buy at these prices. Did you see our new range of digital cameras and inkjet printers? Come along and have a coffee with us. This is much better, and now digital is much cheaper."

Until you discover digital ink, calculating the contents of a single ink cartridge and its cost - easily 20 euros by now - is even more expensive than silver at some $1200 - $2000 per litre, ($1.2-$2 / gram, while silver runs at $1 / gram), and that cartridges in the average pro-consumer printer don't last much longer than maybe 10 sheets of A3+ paper...

And with 7 or 8 cartridges per printer, those 10 sheets have cost you $140-$160 by the time the ink runs out, not even counting the expensive fine art digital ink papers.

Digital is only cheap if you don't print anything.

Klopstock said:
I am sad to say this price increase looks like self-destruction.

That is a sad conclusion, especially as it seems middlemen may be responsible for it, and not so much Ilford itself...

rst · Jan 14, 2011

Klopstock said:
... My summary: in a few months from now none of my dealers will sell Ilford products. I can either build up my stocks and look for new dealers in the future.

I am also in Germany and when I shop for Ilford papers I order it from Silverprint in England. The shipping is much higher than shipping within Germany, but compared to prices in Germany, the savings for one 50 sheets box of Multigrade Warmtone 9.5x12 already cover more than the shipping costs and then I add more ...

And Silverprint has fast delivery and good service.

Cheers
Ruediger

Note From HARMAN technology Limited : Re Price Increases

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