Not so Magical Powers of Stand Development

[ericdan]

Why?

afraid of opening another can of worms.
Also heard it's quite poisonous.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Well, I wouldn't drink it! I've used it for years, even when I lived in Japan, with no issues.

 

[ericdan]

just got a copy of the darkroom cookbook. Maybe something to look into.

 

[LAG]

Excuse me ericdan

First of all, I do not see the relationship between this thread title (Stand) with your OP test (Semi) and the conclusions thereof (Stand) ... much less judging a contact sheet.

Second ...

Stand indeed increases emulsion speed

That is mistaken for a number of reasons.

And finally, you do not mention if the "grain" comparation with Xtol it is also with a Stand (or Semi) development, if not so, no offense but do not mix appless with oranges.

Thank you for sharing anyway.

Best

p.s. Stand Magical powers?

 

[darkosaric]

For smaller formats, it is best done not as pure "Stand" but rather "semi-stand"

This is what I do - best solution for lazy people (60min, agitate every 15-20min). Developing films I find boring - taking photos and printing is where the fun is.

 

[ericdan]

p.s. Stand Magical powers?

Yes. You got that right. Magical powers.

 

[ericdan]

Excuse me ericdan

First of all, I do not see the relationship between this thread title (Stand) with your OP test (Semi) and the conclusions thereof (Stand) ... much less judging a contact sheet.

Second ...



That is mistaken for a number of reasons.

And finally, you do not mention if the "grain" comparation with Xtol it is also with a Stand (or Semi) development, if not so, no offense but do not mix appless with oranges.

Thank you for sharing anyway.

Best

Of course I did. Reread

 

[Doremus Scudder]

I am afraid of pyrocat

Pyro (-cat and -gallol) developers are toxic and you need to avoid skin contact and contamination. Wearing nitrile gloves, being careful of spills and cleaning up well are all that you really need in the way of precautions though. If you don't think you can work to the level of safety a chemical requires, then by all means, avoid it. However, don't be afraid to use it if you are confident you can handle it safely. I develop sheet film with pyro developers by hand in trays; never a problem.

Doremus

 

[LAG]

Of course I did. Reread

Reading done (again), and not a word found! However you won't have to quote your own words this time either to prove it, because I can "read" by your answers that you have no interest in talking about it (with me at least), so thank you for that.

I stop here
Best

 

[Martin Rickards]

You're right. However development by-products like bromide as they are released will settle to the bottom where they will cause bromide drag and other problems. Stand development is a bit like the forward pass in football. Several outcomes are possible but all but one are undesirable.

What are these insoluble bromide compounds that settle at the bottom?

 

[Cholentpot]

I've semi stand and full stand a number of times. The only issue I've got is when I tried doing two at once an I got some horrible drag. Otherwise I've shot 400 film from 400-1600 on the same roll with out any major issues. But for me that means a usable negative.

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

What are these insoluble bromide compounds that settle at the bottom?

They are by-products from film developing and build up with time (even during a single developing cycle).
If allowed to remain in a developer, like in a replenished system, they act like a restrainer, changing the developing properties of the chemistry (for better or worse).

 

[mshchem]

After years of trying all the chatted about techniques (and basically chasing magic bullets), I'm back to some pretty basic techniques. Different off the shelf developers, some zone techniques, but no alternative development methods. Just good solid process with the same materials and consistency above all else yields the best results IMO.

Yep. I have used XTOL for last 15 years, before that HC110, D76, Microdol-X. All give great results when you follow the book with a steady reliable thermometer. I remember D-23 was all the craze in the mid 70's. Now, All this foolishness of instant coffee, etc.
Stand development did work with the old thick emulsion films like super XX . Today I am always floored by T Max films and XTOL or HC 110
Best Regards Mike.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

What are these insoluble bromide compounds that settle at the bottom?

When film is developed bromide and iodide ions are released into the solution. In the absence of agitation these ions remain close to the film surface and are pulled by gravity toward the bottom of the tank. Both ions restrain development. The result is streaking and areas of uneven development. This is a well known phenomenon called bromide drag. With normal agitation these added ions are dispersed throughout the developer solution and therefore their action is uniform. The problem is most notable for developers that contain little or no bromide such as D-23 and some versions of Rodinal.

 

[Martin Rickards]

The problem with bromide drag is bromide and iodide ions are released into the solution. In the absence of agitation these ions remain close to the film surface and are pulled by gravity toward the bottom of the tank. This seems to imply a novel way of separating ions based on their relative density. A developer is an aqueous solution and this separation does not occur. Otherwise, the lightest ions, hydrogen, sodium and potassium would remain at the top and you'd end up with a voltaic cell.
If bromide drag does occur, I cannot believe the proposed mechanics.

 

[Leigh B]

Hi Martin,

Bromide drag is a well-known phenomenon, going back many decades. Google finds 345,000 references.

It shows up as streaks of lesser density, running vertically (based on how the film is oriented in the tank).

It only occurs with static tank processing, not with trays or rotating tanks.

I've only seen it on other peoples' film at the photo club, never on my own film because I always agitate.

- Leigh

 

[LAG]

Stand development did work with the old thick emulsion films like super XX . Today ...

... A Stand development has always been a simple "time & temperature" development, with the two indispensable factors irrespective of the material used (film/chemicals). But I agree with "your today" Mike ... people see magic powers where there are not.

The problem with bromide drag is bromide and iodide ions are released into the solution. In the absence of agitation these ions remain close to the film surface and are pulled by gravity toward the bottom of the tank. This seems to ...

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

Hi Martin,

Bromide drag is a well-known phenomenon, going back many decades. Google finds 345,000 references.

It shows up as streaks of lesser density, running vertically (based on how the film is oriented in the tank).

It only occurs with static tank processing, not with trays or rotating tanks.

I've only seen it on other peoples' film at the photo club, never on my own film because I always agitate.

- Leigh

Oh yes, I have a couple of films to show for sure.
The lesser density is because the bromide acts as a restrainer, which inhibits development locally where it's present.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

The problem with bromide drag is bromide and iodide ions are released into the solution. In the absence of agitation these ions remain close to the film surface and are pulled by gravity toward the bottom of the tank. This seems to imply a novel way of separating ions based on their relative density. A developer is an aqueous solution and this separation does not occur. Otherwise, the lightest ions, hydrogen, sodium and potassium would remain at the top and you'd end up with a voltaic cell.
If bromide drag does occur, I cannot believe the proposed mechanics.

When the bromide and iodide ions are released the developer is not longer a homogeneous solution. Therefore gravity can play a part.

 

[Martin Rickards]

When the bromide and iodide ions are released the developer is not longer a homogeneous solution. Therefore gravity can play a part.

I am not saying that the developer solution remains homogenous, but that local concentrations of ions are not affected significantly by gravity. In non-agitated solutions they are slowly mixed by diffusion and in any direction. There is no gravitational separation of the various ions or covalent molecules as a function of their mass. Many developers contain small amounts of bromide. Does this bromide settle at the bottom of the storage bottle? Bromide drag should radiate in all directions from the local point of occurrence and not just downwards.
I am new to APUG and am trying hard not to be controversial

 

[pdeeh]

I am new to APUG and am trying hard not to be controversial

Oh mate, if you come on here and express any opinion whatsoever, someone will find a reason to disagree violently with you.

(However, in general, I am always inclined to trust Gerald's statements about chemistry)

 

[Martin Rickards]

Oh mate, if you come on here and express any opinion whatsoever, someone will find a reason to disagree violently with you.

(However, in general, I am always inclined to trust Gerald's statements about chemistry)

Do a google on "solution diffusion gravity"

 

[pdeeh]

No. You can't make me do that. Or take yet another achingly pointless thread on stand development seriously.

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

When the bromide and iodide ions are released the developer is not longer a homogeneous solution. Therefore gravity can play a part.

Specific density of the bromide and iodide is probably sufficiently different to cause gravity to play a part. That's how I justify it in my mind, but I don't know the science behind it.

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

Note that halides released from the emulsion are not necessarily what cause the streaking. It depends on the developer formulation but the streaking/mottle can also be caused by developer oxidation products.

I would also consider that since the iodide and bromide have restraining capabilities, when applied locally, they could inhibit development, hence lower density. I don't know what real world effect it would have, however.